Amazon DSP is a misunderstood platform. Heck, even the name is confusing!

The Amazon DSP we’re referring to in this episode is the Demand Side Platform. Not to be confused with Amazon’s other DSP - Delivery Service Provider (the independent contractors who deliver your Amazon packages).

Amazon DSP Ads are a way to target shoppers on and off Amazon with highly relevant image and video ads based on Amazon’s behavioral shopping data.

No one has more shopper data than Amazon. But Amazon doesn’t publish that data or allow anyone to use it unless…you advertise using Amazon DSP.

DSP is one of the most powerful advertising platforms I’ve ever encountered. But it’s also commonly misunderstood, and it is advanced. This is not for beginners.

There are a lot of ways to waste money with it. But there are a few ways to accelerate growth.

Here’s a look at what we discuss:

• The top mistakes advertisers make when running DSP ads.
• The top 3 strategies for accelerating growth with Amazon DSP.
• Why running DSP remarketing only and testing too small will likely fail.
• What it means to have a DSP “seat” and why they are so rare.
• How one seller tripled their DSP spend and accelerated growth by 35%, all while lowering their TACoS.
• Understanding DSP attribution and why it’s a hotly debated topic.

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Transcript

Chris:

Anytime you have uncertainty in an economic environment, we see people pull back on certain areas. I have seen, I don't know if I've seen as low of an inbound interest in DSP since we've been doing this for six years. To me, it lines up exactly with the economic conditions that are out there. And yet OMG has consistent advertisers that are still running DSP and I would just highly recommend that's got to go into your thought process. When people pull back, it's a great opportunity to put yourself right back in.

Brett:

Well, hello and welcome to another edition of the E-Commerce Evolution podcast. I'm your host, Brett Curry, CEO of OMG Commerce, and today is a very special episode. We have not one but two guests and not just two, any old guests. These are OMG experts. One guest you undoubtedly know, he's been on the show many, many times. My business partner and the co-founder of OMG Commerce, Mr. Chris Brewer. Chris, welcome to the show. How's it going?

Chris:

Good to be back. It's going well. A little warm down here in the heat box, but other than that, it's all good.

Brett:

Yeah, so OMG HQ is in beautiful Springfield, Missouri. We're experiencing some unseasonably mild temperatures. It's still summertime, but it's feeling pretty good. But Chris is down in Florida and is hot. It's always hot and so you kind of know that, you know that moving in. So just the way it goes. But Chris is not the only guest. As I mentioned, there are two guests and the other guests on the show. This is not just his first time on this show, this is his first time on any podcast. But this guy is an Amazon DSP legend. And that is our topic today. We're talking about Amazon DSP, what that means, what you should know about it, how you can utilize it, and all sorts of good stuff around Amazon DSP. And so Austin Chambers, DSP specialist for OMG Commerce is our other guests. Austin, what's up man? How's it going? And thanks for joining the show. Yeah,

Austin:

Good to be here. It's going pretty good. It's definitely a little change of pace for me from being behind the scenes usually. So we'll see.

Brett:

Yeah, you're behind the scenes. You know how to work a spreadsheet. This guy understands line items and orders and all kinds of stuff related to DSP. He can nerd out with the best of them, but understands the tactical side, the strategic side. But yeah, podcasting, this is new for you and it's going to be a lot of fun. So we're going to dive right in. For those that do not know, what is Amazon DSP? So Mr. Expert, why don't you start

Austin:

For a newbie? A DSP is a demand side platform. So it's a platform to do display advertising. Amazon DSP is obviously Amazon's demand side platform. Their DSPs all over the place. Google Ads is a version of something like that, but Amazon's is exclusive to Amazon. Only accessible through Amazon.

Brett:

Yeah, it's kind of interesting. So one, there's a little bit of confusion as to what DSP is because there's another Amazon DSP. So we're talking demand side platform. We're all about advertising and accelerating growth and getting new customers, making sales on Amazon. But do you know what the other DSP stands for? Chris? This may be the DSP. Some people have in mind.

Chris:

Well there is one with Amazon. When you Google it, it's their delivery, which is brilliant naming convention when they started this.

Brett:

I think this does sort of underscore the fact that Amazon kind of operates in these small autonomous teams and sometimes these teams do not talk to each other at all. Right? So yeah, the other DSP is delivery service provider. And actually there was a point in time where I was like, I want to start A DSP, that kind of DSP. If I find I knew this guy that was into logistics, I'm like, Hey, what if we partnered together, we start this business? And he's like, dude, that'd be a terrible business. And then after I looked at the numbers, I'm like, you're correct. So I'm not talking about the delivery service provider, but demand side platform and to people that don't know. And I am glad you laid it out that way. Austin, people may think that DSP is unique to Amazon if that's their only exposure, but it's actually a generic advertising term demand side platform just means it's a platform that advertisers can access and utilize and run ads on. However, the name's a little bit misleading because getting access to Amazon DSP either requires a special seat or massive amounts of ad spend or a connection with an agency like ours. But simply put Amazon DSP as a way to run display ads, video ads on and off Amazon, but utilizing Amazon's shopper data. Now, Austin, from your perspective, why is that a big deal that we can use Amazon's shopper data to build our ad targeting?

Austin:

Well, the main thing is Amazon has hundreds of millions of shoppers, even just in the us and they don't share that first party data with anyone. It's all housed internally. So using Amazon's DSP as a way for us to build custom audiences or Amazon builds audiences to target shoppers based on data signals straight from Amazon, we're not relying on a third party doing market research. We're getting the metrics straight from Amazon.

Brett:

Yeah, love it. And Chris, from your perspective, why is that? Why is that such a big deal to harness Amazon's shopper behavioral data?

Chris:

Well, I mean, for one, if you're a seller, if somebody visits your page and decides to keep shopping, looking at other comparisons, seeing who's got a promo or a deal, having access to that data is huge because you can quickly within milliseconds, I think Austin retarget those people and we can talk about it too. But you also, you don't necessarily have to be an Amazon seller to harness the power of that data. Brett, you can also run ads off platform to that audience, which can also be valuable depending on your brand and what you're looking from a return perspective.

Brett:

And no one has more shopper data than Amazon. Nobody has more shoppers in the US and nobody has that data like Amazon and you are not getting that data any other way other than utilizing it through the Amazon DSP platform and it just works. And so when you take that data from Amazon and then combine that with the ad networks that you have access to through DSP, now you can reach any Amazon shopper at any time and it can be extremely effective. So talk about that just a little bit, Austin, where might our ads show up? So I'm running DSP, I can target people based on what they're in the market for, what they're shopping for, what they viewed on Amazon, I can target them based on that. Where might my ads show up

Austin:

Really all over the place? I'd say typically 80% plus of spend is on site ads. So whether that's product detail pages on Amazon, so whether that's product detail pages on the sidebar and search results, stuff like that. But also Amazon has partnerships with a few dozen different third party, what they're called open exchanges where whether it's the Google or I mean you can show on weather channel Yahoo. So you have access to endless inventory virtually. Yeah,

Brett:

It's almost the entire internet or it is like the whole internet that you would want to be associated with. You can access through Amazon DSP. And yeah, there's actually a backdoor into the Google display network. And we're a big Google agency as well. Chris and I have been doing Google ads since forever. And so what's cool is now you can run ads on the Google Display network through Amazon DSP based on what people are shopping for on Amazon. But to your point, Austin, 80% of the time your ads are showing up on amazon.com search results page. There are some areas on the side and at the bottom where display ads show up even on product detail pages, even on your competitor's product detail pages, you can run Amazon DSP ads, which is brilliant on Amazon's part. They don't care. They don't care if someone buys from you or from your competitor, they just want someone to buy. But it's also pretty awesome from your perspective too. If you can show up on a competitor's page and steal that shopper, why not do it? Which is pretty great. Alright, Austin, so let's get everybody excited about Amazon DSP. Let's talk about a case study. What is one of your favorite Amazon DSP case studies and what's possible with DSP?

Austin:

So my favorite case is an example. It's a client that came to me about two years ago. They were doing good on P P C, doing good on the seller side of things. We've been pretty consistent on DSP averaging 12, 13,000 in ad spend over the course of the 2021 year. But came to me, said, Hey, I want to lead into DSP more. Here are the keys to the house. So I love hearing that,

Brett:

By the way. Yes, we will always, if it's a brand we know and trust, we'll always accept the keys to the house. We'll take very good care of your house. But yes, we very much love to hear that phrase.

Austin:

Yeah, exactly. So I took that and kind of ran with it. We like to ease in. We don't want to blow up the boat overnight. So we will increase 13,000 to 17 to 20 to 25 throughout the course of the 2022 year. I think we averaged right around 30, 35,000 in ad spend per month. So up for 13,000 P P C ad spend remained flat year over year. So it was a difference of less than 1% difference in P P C ad spend. So

Brett:

Basically tripling DSP spend, sponsored spend, so Amazon P P C basically stayed the same,

Austin:

Yeah, basically flat on the P P C side. Take that into 2023. We've increased to about 50,000 a month in DSP ad spend. We've actually seen a decrease on the P P C side by 10% or so. Sales are up 35% versus 2021 when looking at it on a monthly average. So tacos and we use DSP ad spend when figuring that tacos is down from 35 to 40 down to under 30 some months. So we've increased DSP ad spend by three x plus, but also decreased tacos at the same time and increase P P C efficiency.

Brett:

Beautiful, love this so much. So we've gone accelerated to the floor, but in a very controlled, methodical, measured approach, but triple DSP ad spend, but we've been able to reduce sponsored ad spend and now total efficiency, total tacos is better than it's ever been. Go ahead Chris.

Chris:

Yeah, a couple of key learnings here. I get the fortunate place to be able to talk to a lot of potential DSP advertisers and now this case study is a little different because they kind of passed the trust threshold with OMG. They were currently advertising and obviously knew what we could do. But the key factor here with this particular client, and I can't emphasize this anymore to brands, is they gave us the leeway to be able to grow and not just like, Hey, let's test this for two or three months and see how it goes. Because typically when I've seen new brands come in and we used to all actually allow a three month DSP test, and that's usually what it ended up. People limped along spent the bare minimum and then couldn't really tell actually how it was impacting because you looked at this DSP spend relative to their P P C spend, and it was one percentage, two percentage, 3%, you're not going to be able to tell any sales differences from those kinds of numbers. So they stuck with it and they had a team that could focus strategically. And this is a key difference because when we get DSP advertisers coming from other places, I'm not going to name names, but a lot of times it's places that are using somebody else's seat or it's software driven and they don't have people that really understand how to effectively use the audiences and scale. So that's something just to keep in mind.

Brett:

Yeah, it's really interesting. We do talk to people and DSP is a bit of a controversial channel and we'll get into this more later, but there's been a couple of Twitter storms or X storms I guess you should say now, where people are like dog and DSP. And we have talked to a number of brands that have not had a great experience with DSP, but we found exactly what you said, Chris, we're like, okay, well how much did you test? How did you test? What did you do? And they're like, well, we spent 3000 a month. And when we do the math and look at the traffic that generated, we can say that increased the number of shoppers to your page is by two or 3%. It makes sense then that you wouldn't feel that or wouldn't notice that, right? If you're already growing a little two or 3% bump, maybe you see it, maybe you don't.

And so yeah, this is unique where this client trusted us and we'd earn that trust. We've proven it and we're able to scale. I do think, and this is just a quick side note because I know we have agencies listening, amen. This, we have a lot of clients listening to this. You're working with an agency, obviously don't trust someone until they've earned it, but when you want someone to steer the strategy or steer campaigns, don't also keep your hand on the wheel. If you're steering and you've got someone over on the passenger seat trying to jerk the wheel, bad things happen. And so yeah, this is one where we were given a little bit of free rein and we took advantage of it and proved it out. And so what's also interesting about this is I think a lot of brands hit a bit of a ceiling with sponsored ads. I love sponsored product ads, sponsored brand sponsored brand video. I think they're foundational. I think you got to start there and really get those working well first. But sometimes you get a ceiling where you can't really scale more than you are now efficiently. And that's where DSP can come in. So it can create great top of funnel growth, great remarketing growth, great repurchase growth, and help you even improve your tacos, which is amazing.

Austin:

And I'll provide a little bit of context of what Chris said about people coming in, spending two 3% of their ad dollars on DSP. This client was spending in the single digits, five, six, 7%. Their monthly sales can fluctuate that much each month anyways. So cutting out that much spend or adding that much spend, it's hard to see the difference. It's going

Brett:

To look normal. The patterns are going to look the same,

Austin:

The patterns are going to look the same. So we took that from 7% to, I mean a quarter of their ad spend almost plus. So whenever you add that much, when it's that substantial of a percentage of the overall piece, you can tell when it makes a difference.

Brett:

What are some of the top mistakes you see Amazon, DSP advertisers, sellers making with Amazon DSP? We talked about one where you're testing at such a small level, you'll never be able to feel the difference. Now I will say I think you should test in a way that's reasonable, right? Don't just start spending 50 grand a month unless that's an in significant amount to you, which I know some sellers it is. So you want to test smartly, but test in a way that we see the difference. So that's a mistake. What are some other mistakes you see people

Austin:

Make? You already said it. Testing small, testing only. Bottom of funnel is one of the biggest things. People want to come in. They want to spend minimum budgets on only retargeting or only repurchasing, which is a piece of the puzzle, but it's only one piece of the puzzle. It's not where DSP really shines. I like to spend roughly a third on bottom of the funnel tactics. When you're only spending a small percentage of overall ad spend on bottom the funnel, you're not going to see a big difference. The other thing which Chris alluded to is people only wanted to test for a short period of time. And this case study, it was six plus months of scaling before we actually started to see a difference in the monthly averages. So can't speak to exactly why that's the case, but that's what we've seen time and again, so giving it 6, 7, 8 months of scaling and being a significant piece of the pie for it to actually prove itself out.

And then one of the other things, and one of the biggest things for me is judging it strictly off roas DSP. When you're talking mid and upper funnel DSP with awareness campaigns, if you judge them by roas, it's going to be a fail 99% of the time, especially when you consider Amazon's attribution model is last touch or last click. Whenever you're running awareness campaigns, that's going to be their first touch. They might have three or four other ad types they come on contract with along the way. So of course that in market campaign is not going to have a good roas. So typically if you're just judging all of the campaigns based on ROAS or ACOs, you're going to be disappointed.

Brett:

Yeah, I love this so much. And I think the way you should look at this is more the way you might look at YouTube or Facebook where part of this is generating awareness and building a brand and getting people to convert later. Anything that's not bottom of funnel, part of the impact or benefit is the lift you generate or the halo effect generated. One reason why people love sponsored products and they get addicted to it, and actually they get a little bit spoiled with sponsored product ads, is it's immediate gratification. If someone clicks on a sponsored product ad, they're likely very close to making a purchase. They're interested, their comparison shopping, they're ready to pull the trigger. And so that's where you get 10, 15, 20% conversion rates, something like that on some product detail pages. So DSP is not the same if you're running remarketing or retargeting, that can be similar.

But the real beauty, the real magic of DSP is when you can layer on some of the other targeting and over time you're building that top of funnel interest and it is going to create a lift. And this is one of those things where you have to have a little bit of faith, right? We're still measuring. We can still see are we on the right track even in the early days. But the real benefit comes six, seven months later, like you talked about Austin, where, hey, you know what? We're spending more on DSP, but our tacos, our total advertising cost of sales, the total percentage we're spending on ads has gone down because of DSP, which is awesome. So let's talk about some of, what are some of the strategies you recommend? How are we utilizing DSP? You said about a third for bottom of funnels, like third remarketing, repurchase. Where do the other two thirds

Austin:

Go? Yeah, so I like to do thirds for bottom, mid and upper funnel. Typically, that's not a one size fits all, but that's usually pretty close. So when we're talking mid funnel, it's going after people that are already familiar with your competitors. They're in the market for, you're selling product A, your competitor selling product A, so they're looking at your competitors. So we're targeting people that have viewed those competitor products or we're targeting the product pages themselves. So this is combination of contextual targeting and competitive remarketing is what a lot of people call it.

Chris:

Well, maybe too Austin, and forgive me Brett, if this is on your roster of questions later, but I think it may be a good time because, and I'm just remembering things when I talk to people on calls and things come up around the same timeframes we were talking about audiences is how is what OMG can do with our own DSP C different from sponsor brand display, some of the display options that you already have within sponsored? Where is it good? Where is it limited? People often want to understand the difference there,

Austin:

Which I know that one of the later questions is when to consider DSP versus just sponsored display. Brett, do you want to wait to compare the difference?

Brett:

Go ahead, go ahead. Yeah, Chris has totally hijacked the show. He's totally just, he decided I'm no longer a guest, I'm a host. I'm just going to fire away questions like I own the place. No, actually that was fun. And so no, yeah, answer the question. I love that question.

Austin:

Yeah, so one of the main differences between DSP and sponsor display is the way you can customize your targeting. So sponsor display is really good at some things. One of the things I love about it the most, which is not available through DSP is bidding on a C P C basis. So DSP is strictly ccpm, so we're paying for impressions, not strictly for clicks, but with sponsored display, you're a little bit more limited with the type of targeting as far as overlapping and excluding certain audiences. With DSP, we can target a viewer of a specific product. We can exclude people that have already purchased that product or a competitor product or people that have viewed 30 days ago, but not within the past 15 days. With sponsor display, you're kind of at the mercy of what they offer. So last 90 day viewers kind of open-ended, last 265 day purchasers. I can target people that have purchased in the last 30 days if I wanted to. So the customizability with DSP is far and way better with sponsor display. And from what we've seen, the scalability is as well with sponsor display on both our clients and other clients or other brands that I've talked to. Sometimes they hit a pretty low cap on sponsor display spend, which is something that we rarely struggle with on DSP. Yeah, D

Brett:

S P way more customizable, targetable, and you can really scale it, which is amazing. Now Chris, you've mentioned a couple things. You mentioned something a few times that I bet people have heard and they're like, wait, whatcha talking about a seat? We're talking about a chair. What is the seat? So can you explain that? What does it mean to have a DSP seat and why is that a little bit unique right now?

Chris:

Yeah, so I don't remember. It's been I think over five years, Brett. Yeah,

Brett:

Yeah, for sure. It was like 2017.

Chris:

Yeah, we had heard about DSP A guy that actually used to work with us, heard about it, and we started to ask questions of our Amazon team about it. And back then, I don't know what is now, but back then it was like you had to have $30,000 as a brand individually to advertise on DSP. I think it

Brett:

Was like 30 to 50 a month that you had to commit to get a seat for DSP.

Chris:

Yeah. And so back then we didn't have that because we didn't have any advertisers at that point for DSP, but we started to get some in and I don't know, we got our own platform. And so here's the key things that you need to ask for, especially if you're out looking for a Amazon DSP provider is one, find out how experienced the team that's going to be actually overseeing the campaigns and the ads is ask them how much time they kind of spend in the account. Do I get a strategic discussion? Because what you'll fare it out there sometimes is if they are outsourcing that, because some places say, oh, sure, we have our own seat. But what they mean is their seat is their advertising software provider and they're running it through that. And again, all I can tell you is the feedback I've had from some of those, we get a decent amount of leads from those kinds of relationships. We've also ourselves provided seats to software companies, but we do it a little differently to kind of give them that strategy. And so that's basically it. We've even helped agencies kind have a seat through us so that they can get enough to kind of get their own. So we try to be a good industry partner there as well, try to

Brett:

Help the ecosystem where we're friendly to other agencies. We don't keep all of our toys just to ourself. But yeah, I think it's a great question to ask. Do you have your own seat? And then what kind of experience do you have with DSP? Yeah, we've been doing this for five plus years. I think it was 2018 ish. We were one of the fastest growing Amazon D SS P agencies. So myself, our Amazon director, we had to fly out to Amazon to the hq. We had dinner with Jeff Bezos. So all of that was true, except the Jeff Bezos part did not see him, did not meet him. But we did get to go to Amazon hq, which is cool. And so yeah, ask those questions. And so Amazon has kept the barrier pretty high to get an Amazon DSP seat for a while. They were not making it available to anybody. I think that's opened up a little bit. But anyway, so OMG is a little bit unique in that sense. We've had a seat for a long time, very seasoned, very experienced. We had a direct line to the Amazon DSP team, so that's pretty

Chris:

Special. And usually a good question to ask is, well, if we run DSP with you, can we get access to the platform so we can kind of get in there and see what you're doing? And if they say, oh, sure, we'll give you a dashboard access, usually that means they've got some kind of software overlaid because with OMG commerce, all of our accounts are within the same essentially DSP seat. So if we were to give a client access, they would be able to see all the information from all of our clients. So it's just a little bit of extra little tip there to find out, hey, is this really their own seat or are they outsourcing this somewhere

Brett:

Else? So let's go back to strategy Austin. So you were kind of beginning to lay that out. So third remarketing and repurchase, third kind of mid funnel. And you were talking about being able to target people that are shopping for competitive products. You talked about being able to put an ad on a competitor's product detail page. So continue the thought there. Why is that? I think that should be obvious why that's so cool, but why is that special?

Austin:

Yeah, well one is you're hopefully drawing sales away from competitors, which if competitors are selling more or less and you're selling more, it's going to help your organic ranking. You're going to show up for sponsored ads more. So that's kind of the main thing. Whenever we go after anything that's not bottom of funnel, it's stealing a sell away from someone else.

Brett:

And how often would that be if someone gave you this scenario, call it five, 10 years ago where they said, Hey, what if shopper's about to buy your competitor's product and at the last minute you show up and show them your product and show them the price and the reviews and maybe a little message about why it's so awesome, would you want to do that? I would be like, yeah, I want to do that. I'd do that all day long. And I remember back in the early days, and I've been doing this a long time, in the early days of remarketing back when that was kind of a novel idea, people would ask, Hey, can we remarket to our competitors shoppers? So remarketing on Google or Facebook or whatever, you're remarketing your own shoppers or your own site visitors. But people have always wondered, can I remarket to my competitors shoppers?

And the answer pre DSP is, well no, unless your competitor lets you pixel their site. Other than that you can't. But with Amazon DSP, Amazon's like, I don't care. So yeah, sure. Use target shoppers of your competitor, put the ad on the competitor's page. We just want people to purchase. And so if you leverage that and do that, right, it's such a powerful way to grow. And the thing you got to keep in mind is I think there are some cases where if I'm looking at Nike shoes on Amazon and a pair of Adidas sneaks in there, probably still going to buy the Nike. But for a lot of product categories, we're not super brand loyal. So I'm looking at one product, but I see another brand that's maybe comparable and has better reviews, and I like the look of it better. It's possible that I'll buy that instead. Yeah. Okay. So that's competitor targeting A do you have another thought there?

Austin:

Yeah, something I was going to add is with those audiences, if you have one or two top competitors that seem to be performing well, we can make an audience of just those competitive viewers or target just those product pages. If you don't care, we can make an audience of 150 different ACEs in your category and exclude ones that have a price point that's too high or too low. So the way that we can customize those audiences to target exactly who we want to target is pretty endless.

Brett:

And one of the things I like to think about with Amazon, and I think this applies to Google shopping and some of the other marketplaces and stuff, is part of the success here is part advertising, part merchandising, showing up on the digital shelf, and whether that's organic, and that's Amazon brand management and s e O type of stuff, or it's sponsored ads, that's the P P C magic that we like to run. But with Amazon DSP, there's a little bit of merchandising too because it's like we're able to follow someone as they slide down that aisle, right? They're on the aisle looking at toothpaste or they're looking at fitness equipment, and as they slide down the aisle away from our products, looking at a competitor's products, we can pop up and say, Hey, hey, what about me? Did you think about this? And just pretty powerful. And so lots of opportunities there. So I would say that's kind of mid funnel. Maybe it's inching in the top of funnel depending on how you define it. But then what would be kind of some top of funnel strategies?

Austin:

So top of funnel is typically going to be in market audiences, which is people in the market for x, y, Z category. So let's say you'd sell toothpaste and someone might be in the market for oral care products. So maybe they were on Amazon and they went to a product that was in the oral code subcategory. So those are typically the largest audiences, super broad. They do have some more specific ones here and there, but usually you're going to get several million people in an audience like that, sometimes 50 million. So super broad audiences, both in terms of size and in terms of how broad the category can be. They're also lifestyle and demographic audiences that can be layered in. So based on people's purchase habits and shopping habits over their lifetime of being an Amazon shopper, they're obviously really into fitness. They buy a lot of supplements and workout equipment and athletic apparel, and then another, not necessarily past top of funnel, but the very top of the funnel is typically where we use video ads, S t V. So streaming TV is kind of the new big thing. It's one of those things, it's like running TV commercials, it takes a pretty big investment, but this is about as far up the funnel as you can go. It'd be comparable to YouTube top of funnel advertising,

Brett:

And we love what's possible there. With streaming tv, you can show up on Amazon fire TV sticks and Amazon devices and things like that, which there are millions and millions of. Let's talk about those in-market audiences really quickly. So give me a category, Austin, make up a category, not toothpaste. I think that's a little too broad, but something else. Dog food. Dog food. Okay, so let's look at dog food. So basically if we're looking at an in-market audience, let's go a little more specific. Let's go organic dog food, okay, so organic dog food, what does that in-market audience look and how does someone get in that audience and how does someone get kicked out or leave that audience? Just so people can kind of understand who are we targeting if we say, I want an InMarket audience for organic dog food?

Austin:

Yeah. So InMarket for organic pug food virtually means that within, and it's either 28 or 30 days, I believe it's past 28 days of shopping on Amazon's side that within the past 28 days, that person has searched viewed bit in the subcategory for organic dog food. So whether they clicked on a couple products and search results that were or labeled organic dog food, maybe that was part the title of the product, something along their shopping journey within the last 28 days indicates that they are about to purchase or wanting to purchase organic dog

Brett:

Food. So we know they've been on the aisle, right? To think about this like a physical store, someone's been on the organic, someone's been on the dog food aisle, but then they've been down where the organic dog food is, right? They've been living for it, they've been shopping, and maybe they add it to their cart and they put it back on the shelf. We know there's interest there, and so now we can target them. So what are some of the creative ways that sellers and that we are using in market audiences?

Austin:

So typically what I like to do, Amazon has some pretty good overlap reports that show us how certain in-market audiences overlap with our custom audiences. So let's say we sell organic dog food and I have an audience that's made up of people that have viewed our product. Amazon is going to show us the in market and lifestyle audiences that overlap. So we can pick and choose which audiences make the most sense based on how our audience actually fits into those other categories. Once we let something run for a while, we like to pull some audience insights reports that show us what other audiences that we're not targeting interact well with these ads. So maybe people are in the market for organic dog food, but it's also people that live in high-end gun zip codes or people that are over 55 and maybe it's primarily women that click and not men. Over time, we can layer in those audiences to get as specific as possible to get the best possible results.

Brett:

What's really cool here, Austin, is actually you can utilize DSP to get more insights into your shoppers, to get more insights into your buyers and those people that are looking at your product by saying, Hey, what are the related audiences? What's overlapping with my buyer? And yeah, you get to learn some pretty cool things and then that can adjust your targeting. Anything. And Chris, want to get you involved in this as well. Do you hear any misconceptions when you're talking to potential DSP advertisers or are there areas where they're just blown away when they hear what's possible on DSP? What's kind of the perspective from an audience standpoint of the people you talk to?

Chris:

Well, first I must say that I've got an audience of organic dog food lovers behind me that may potentially chime in because there's someone in the house they don't recognize right now.

Brett:

You mean the furry, the furry lovers of organic dog food or maybe lovers of any dog food in general? There

Chris:

You go. Actually, I think he got so excited about Austin's organic dog food example that it just could not contain himself.

Austin:

Makes sense.

Chris:

At any rate, your question was around what was that? Because now I'm often dog

Brett:

Food. Yeah, and it's totally okay that the dogs are, which by the way, I'm going to say something kind of controversial, not super related, but just curious to me, curious what kind of dog food you feed your dogs, Chris. Because I've started to see this trend of vegan dog food, and that's always surprised because I've always thought dogs were meat eaters. Are your dogs meat eaters, Chris? Are you feeding them veggies and stuff?

Chris:

Actually they are loving this week because I cooked some fantastic ribeyes out on the grill the other night. And did you Giving your

Brett:

Dogs ribeyes,

Chris:

Man, given dogs ribeyes. We are also, I'm going to tell you what kind of a couple Jenny and I are. We offered to babysit my daughter's boyfriend's poodle while they are in Central America for two months. And anyway, it's one thing walking a dog like our poo who's about this big, and it's another walking a dog of that size. And let's just say that the plastic bag has to be larger. That's all I'm going to say. And I think this relates to your question, it's because we feed them, we lift those ribeyes had to put 'em up way up on the refrigerator so the dog wouldn't get them. And then we woke up the next morning, realized we never put them in the refrigerator. So they've been getting cut ribeye chunks for the last several days and they're loving it. But we actually do buy the fresh food in the refrigerated section at Walmart, which is the organic stuff that doesn't have all the fillers, and we mix that in with some really high quality food. But you asked, there's the answer.

Brett:

Fascinating. Totally a side note, but super interesting. Hey, I believe there's a market for anything. So sell vegan dog

Chris:

Food increases engagement in your podcast. People love dog stories for sure. This is going to be the only part people maybe I love that podcast, especially the dog food segment. I like the

Brett:

Dog part. And why does Chris give his dogs ribeyes? It's crazy when you leave it out and don't refrigerator. It makes sense. So Chris, what I was talking about though was audiences. So you talk to people when they first reach out to O mg and they're like, Hey, what's possible with DSP? What are either the misconceptions about audience targeting or the things people get really excited about related to audience

Chris:

Targeting? Oh gosh, they just don't know. They don't know. They've heard D SS P, they've heard it can be great. They don't know. They aren't familiar with the different audience types. Again, that's a good vetting out for your agency is how well does your agency understand all the audience types, all the various targeting and where you should actually start. We don't do this with everyone, and I think we also are sensitive to people's interest in getting a good return. Sometimes people just want to see, Hey, what is my return actually going to be? And in those cases, we'll actually recommend, Hey, let's start more bottom of funnel. Let's get you those retargeting audiences and most people that they get that audience right away. Retargeting, there is some confusion sometimes about where their ads are actually going to appear to these audiences on platform, off platform. But we've got a great resource in our strategy document that we can share with folks, and I'd be happy, anybody wants to contact the podcast to send this over to 'em that kind of lists those different audiences out. I think we still have a resource on our website, the DSP roadmap that goes through some of those audiences. I would highly recommend if you are a newbie to DSP and you want to know more, that's a great resource to grab and it's a very easy

Brett:

Read. Yep, got to get that for short. So a couple things to talk about. We talked about some of the traditional things to do like, hey, if you're selling organic dog food, let's target that. If you're selling tooth whitening toothpaste for sensitive teeth, even though I said don't talk about toothpaste, that you target people that are in the market for that, but you can also get creative in addition to that. So use this as an example. Silicone wedding rings. I've seen ads for silicone wedding rings, looking at treadmills or looking at other exercise and fitness equipment. So ways to look at, hey, what else might someone be shopping for that's very related or complimentary to my product? Or they would indicate, Hey, someone's looking for that. They would benefit from having my product as well.

Chris:

Are you doubling up there too? What's that? Oh, that's your, okay. I was looking at that. This is

Brett:

A health. So yeah, talk about this is like a sleep tracker health tracker. It's an aura ring, but same thing if you start to see, hey, this looks like this is a biohacker, this is someone who's buying all kinds of fitness stuff and supplements and crazy things like that. Let's show them an ad for an aura ring. And so you can begin to do things like that too, to find someone who's likely to be a customer of yours.

Austin:

And that's one of the other things about the audience overlap report that we can pull sometimes audiences show up there, show up in that report that it's like, why is someone that's in the market for this clicking on my product at a high rate? It shows you things that you wouldn't have ever thought of,

Brett:

Just shows you, hey, other ways to merchandise and sell this product,

Chris:

And this is a perfect opportunity to do. What I've been able to do on every podcast I've ever been on with you is that I actually was in the market for one of those aura rings, one of those little biohacking devices, but I got it down to two, but I just could not make a decision. I was just frozen because it was just an either aura decision.

Brett:

So I knew it was coming. Listeners, I should have stepped in, I should have spared you. I should have put the kibosh on it. When Chris warms up like that, I'm like, okay, there's a pun, there's a pun. There's a pun impending here. But no, that's actually pretty good either Aura, I get it. W okay, so let's do this. Let's talk about measuring DSP because this is one of the more interesting parts about DSP. I mentioned that sometimes there are people on platforms that talk ill towards D SS P I saw a Twitter storm, a good buddy of mine who's in the space texted me late one night. I was like, dude, do you see what's happening on Twitter right now about Amazon DSP? So I looked and I chimed in and I talked to my buddy and stuff, but a lot of misconceptions about how DSP is measured. So what do we need to know about DSP measurement? Austin,

Austin:

Which one thing that I tell every client that we bring on is I take especially OZ numbers. I take those attribution numbers with a grain of salt because it is view based attribution. One question that we get asked a lot is, okay, I'm selling this product. Someone looked at this product and then we showed a DSP ad and then they purchased or are they going to come back and buy anyways? There's no way to quantify that. I guarantee that some of the people would've come back and bought anyways, which is why we take the numbers with a grain of salt. There's no exact formula for accounting for that, but we do know that there has to be some over attribution just because all the numbers point that there is. So we expect ROAS numbers that are above realistic. If they're lower than what we expect, then something's probably not going quite right.

Chris:

But I think that's to be, there's some amount of that with anything you do. Facebook is going to attribute more, they're going to lean more into Facebook attribute the things that led to conversions there. It's going to lean heavier there. And so I think that's common. I do think that Amazon, because of the nature of what it is, I think you have to go into it with again, that longer view because if you fall in love with your early returns of what you see in the reporting just from a retargeting basis, those are going to change as you move more up funnel. And you've got to see over time how it impacts the bigger picture.

Brett:

And I kind of nerd out about attribution. I like it. So I'm going to give my point of view on this and try not to get too nerdy. I hear people say things like Amazon attribution is wrong, and my take on any attribution is it's only wrong if it's broken, if it's not working the way it was intended to work, that's when it's truly wrong. Otherwise wrong is probably not the right word to use. You just need to understand what is this measuring? Because when you look at Facebook attribution, it's measuring what it's says it's going to measure. If you look at Google Analytics, it's measuring according to a set of standards. One example here, and this may not be a great example for everybody, I'm not an accountant. I've never aspired to be an accountant, but you got cash accounting, you got accrual accounting.

You would never say that cash accounting is wrong and accrual accounting is right. Maybe accrual accounting is preferred for your business model. It's just two different ways of measuring. And so what you got to look at with Amazon DSP is that it's not a click-based conversion only. It's also impression based. And that actually makes sense. Now, you may be like, oh, well I can't handle impression based conversions well, but you're also buying it based on impressions. So that's why Amazon is doing it. So that's not right. That's not good, bad, right, wrong. It just is what it is. So if you know that conversions are coming in view based or click-based, that's going to help shed light on what you were looking at. And that kind of plays into what you said Austin, where yeah, we probably want to overshoot a little bit on ROAS because there may be some view based conversions that are attributed that maybe those people are going to buy anyway if they didn't see the ad. So maybe we need to be a little more conservative in our look at things. Were we going to add something to that, Austin? Yeah,

Austin:

You were talking about attribution models is you have to understand that Amazon uses last touch with an emphasis on clicks,

Brett:

Right? That's another great point.

Austin:

And I think it's across all ad types. Now. I know at one point, I think sponsored brand used a different look back, but I believe across all ad types, it's a 14 day attribution window. So if someone clicks any type of sponsored ad sponsored product brand display and then views a DSP ad, as long as they don't click that DSP ad and they still purchase within the 14 days of the original click, the click gets the attribution. So DSP is not going to get a sale attributed when A P P C click took place within the same attribution window.

Brett:

Yeah, I love that. And again, not to get too technical, that can just be too much for a podcast, but there is a little bit of setup. There's a token you have to place to get everything communicated to get DSP communicated with your sponsored product ads and stuff and sponsor display and sponsor brand. But yeah, once everything is communicating, then only one ad is going to get the credit. And so that's a really good call out. If I click on an ad and then I see a D Ss P ad, DS P is not going to get credit and I convert, or if I click on a DSP ad or just view a DSP ad first and that's what gets me interested. And then I search for you and click on a sponsored product ad. That sponsored product ad is going to get the credit for the conversion. So you got to understand what it's measuring to know how it's working.

Austin:

One thing that we haven't talked about yet, which as an agency, we're just getting our feet wet in is A M C, which one of the nice things about A M C, which is Amazon Marketing Cloud, is they have queries that give us different attribution models. So if we want to see based on first touch or last touch or multi-touch, we can see the path to conversion and maybe eight times out of 10 that in-market audience was the first touch attribution, but it's getting almost no credit because they're converting through A DSP retargeting or a sponsored brand.

Brett:

Yeah, yeah, it's so good. And there's some areas where Amazon is way ahead of Google as an example, competitor targeting and stuff like that. Can't do that on Google for obvious reasons. But then there are other areas where this comparing attribution models, like that's kind of table stakes in Google, but it's not available everywhere in Amazon, but it is inside of the Amazon marketing cloud. And that's so interesting to use a football analogy, what if someone didn't really understand the game of football and we're all chiefs fans Go, chiefs go Mahomes. What if someone didn't understand football? But they did understand that the person in the end zone with the ball, they're the one that scores, they're the one that gets points. Someone could look at Mahomes and look at the chiefs and say it's the receivers, it's the wide receivers and the running back.

They're the ones that have, they have the ball in the end zone, not that dude with kind of the crazy voice or whatever. Number 15, it's not him, it's that's the guy in the end zone. But we all know it's the quarterback that sets it up. And in some ways that's what DSP does. It's the setup. It's the setup for the actual conversion. But you can only see that if you run DSP long enough and you're measuring lift and you're measuring total sales and you're looking at your tacos, or if you're looking at an A M C report and seeing, hey, you know what D SS P was the first click or the first impression on 20% of my conversions or 30% of my conversions or whatever. So yeah, understanding the role that DSP plays, understanding how Amazon measures it all, that's really important to crafting the right strategy and knowing when to press the gas pedal and when to hit the great brake pedal as you're building your business.

Chris:

So what you're saying, Brett, is this is a great podcast or post is this is how you don't fumble in the attribution game.

Brett:

Yeah, you do not want to fumble. You don't want to get right. That

Chris:

Was a great example. I do think you got to go with that somewhere. Yeah.

Brett:

Sweet. I like it, man.

Austin:

I will say that's one reason why I like the N F L more than Amazon because N F L uses multi-touch attribution. Quarterback gets credit lineman get credit receiver gets credit. Amazon's all last touch.

Brett:

So true. Yeah. Yeah. Guys, even the N F L gets multi-touch attribution basketball, multi-touch attribution. You got assist, you got rebounds, you got points, all that. Anyway, so get with the program. No, just last click. Awesome. So let's talk about what are some other considerations here? I'm just getting, if I'm listening to this and I'm like, okay, I'm a successful Amazon seller, when do I know the time is right for me to start on DSP? And then what should I start with other than reaching out to Austin and talking to Austin? That's a given, but what should I start with and when am I ready?

Austin:

And you kind of alluded to this before, there's a point when you are running P P C ads that you're spending about as much as the platform will lets you, you're efficient, you're making money, but you've plateaued. You can't really push any further. And what I've seen is that is

Brett:

Any incremental dollar you spend is just like, it's just going to Amazon. You're not getting much out of that.

Austin:

And that's the point where DSP comes into play. If your P P C is, you're holding it back because performance is not that good, DSP is not going to come in and magically make everything more efficient. DSP is there whenever you've plateaued and you're ready to grow. I would never recommend it for a brand who is not in a great spot on the P P C side of things. Or if they're in a super big growth stage and we don't know where P P C is going to go, then we don't really know where to start with DSP whenever P P C has so much fluctuation. So I like to look at D SS P as a percentage of overall ad spend. Let's say you're spending $200,000 a month on P P C at the right spot. I'd like to be spending roughly 50,000, 75,000 on the DSP side.

Keep a one to three, one to four ratio. So if you've hit that point and you don't have to be spending 200,000, that's just an example. But if you hit that point where your P P C ads are going, well, they're efficient, but you've plateaued and you want to continue growing, that's where DSP comes into play. We like to start small with bottom of the funnel campaigns just to make sure return is going to be what we hope and expect it to be. But we also come in with a playbook that has a built-in ramp up period. So month one, we might only run minimal spend on retargeting repurchasing, but there's already a plan in place for month two and month three to add mid and upper funnel and to scale budgets. So there's no guesswork whenever month three hits. Like, oh, what campaigns do we want to start? Now we already know what campaigns we're going with, assuming everything to that point is performing, we think it should.

Brett:

Yeah, I love that. Really this DSP is a way to accelerate growth. It's not the way to fix fundamental business problems. It's not the way to grow your business when there are other more pressing issues. It's what works when you've got a stable foundation, good product, good reviews, good sponsored product, sponsored display, sponsored brand video, things like that are not sponsored display. Sponsored brand. Sponsored brand video. Then you go hard on DSP. Chris, how do you advise people? People come to you, you're the first one that people talk to, typically, what are you advising people on when they know they're ready for D S

Chris:

P? Yeah, and I would just say these are not hard and fast rules or anything. This is just strictly me having a lot of discussions with Austin and the team and evaluating brands because I could say easily, oh, you need to have at least a $25,000 a month P P C budget so that we could at least have an incremental spend to start with on DSP. This is if you're not coming in and saying, Hey, we want to run top of funnel and we've got this budget set aside and we're good for that. But I think to do having a healthy P P C spend is a good indicator that you could be successful on DSP. I'll let Austin speak to more about that. And we're also going to be ones that are going to say, Hey, we don't think we're going to analyze that because you've got to have enough sessions and visits to your product page. That's a key thing that we can't, even if you wanted to, we couldn't even get advertising. There's certain products, Amazon won't let us advertise on DSP for certain categories, but also if your sessions are running, let's just say roughly below 7,500 a month in a 30 day lookback window, it's probably not going to go anywhere, but I'd want to lean on Austin for any additional things you might say on that topic.

Austin:

Yeah, and I'd say even 7,500 at this point is pretty conservative. Even if that audience does go through, spend is going to be next. 7,500.

Brett:

What? Austin, could you clarify that? 75 or

Austin:

What sessions or with vendor accounts? It's called a glance view. So that's basically how many individual sessions of people visiting the page have occurred over whatever look back window. We do 30 day audiences, so we always look at a 30 day look back window.

Brett:

Awesome. Well guys, we have even exceeded the allotted time that I thought we would spend, but it's been so good. I still love DSP as a marketing junkie as a long time advertising marketing guy. DSP just fires me up, man. It's just unique. It's got unique targeting capabilities, it's got all kinds of data at your disposal. Some really, really cool stuff you can use with DSP. It is advanced. It's not the first thing you should do, but it is something that should be part of your growth strategy if you're a serious Amazon seller serious about growing a brand on Amazon. And so, hey, if you're interested, omg commerce.com, click on the Let's talk button and let's talk about DSP. You'll almost certainly be talking to Chris at some point. And then if everything looks good, you'll probably talk to Austin as well. But gentlemen, any closing thoughts on Amazon DSP or anything marketing related or hey, chiefs related?

Chris:

My closing thoughts would be anytime you have uncertainty in an economic environment, we see people pull back on certain areas. I don't know if I've seen as low of an inbound interest in DSP since we've been doing this for six years. To me, it lines up exactly with the economic conditions that are out there. And yet OMG has consistent advertisers that are still running DSP and I would just highly recommend that's got to go into your thought process. When people pull back. It's a great opportunity to put yourself right back in and

Austin:

A little bit more to add in. Closing thoughts on when to consider DSP. If you think of it like account health seller, account health as personal health, if you go talk to a personal trainer and your diet is trash, they're going to tell you to get your diet right before you start working out. And I like to see you P P C and DSP as diet versus exercise. We could work out all day long on DSP, but if you're not eating right, then it's pointless. Whereas if you get your diet right, you start eating well, get healthy, then you can work out and actually see gains.

Brett:

And even to go next level and to talk about my ring for just a minute, if your diet and exercise are right, but your sleep is garbage, you're going to be sunk too. So you got good sponsored products, you got good DSP, but there's fundamental business issues. We can't fix those either, but love that analogy. Love Amazon, DSP. So check it out omg commerce.com with that. Gentlemen, thank you. This was entertaining. This was fun. We covered a lot of subjects, chiefs, dogs, organic versus vegan versus meat for dogs, plus a lot of marketing. Goodness. So thanks fellas. Awesome. Thank

Chris:

You.

Brett:

Thanks Brett. And as always, thank you for tuning in. We'd love to hear from you. Connects with us on the socials. I'm actually pretty active on LinkedIn right now, so hit me up. Or check us out on Instagram and YouTube. The YouTube channel is growing, so check that out as well. And with that, until next time, thank you.

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Your Amazon listings are probably NOT as optimized as you think. Your products likely aren’t merchandised as well as they could be either. In this episode, Brandon shows you how to find obscure keywords to dramatically grow your sales and rankings. He also shows you how to merchandise your product to fly off the shelf. 

‍

We also talk about AI, competitor research, new product development, and what it will take to get ahead and stay ahead on Amazon. 

‍

Brandon is in an elite club of 8 figure sellers on Amazon. His brands will sell over $30 million this year on Amazon, and he’s targeting over $50 million in sales next year. 

‍

Here’s a look at what we discuss:

• The two main factors that impact ranking on Amazon: 1. Performance and 2. Relevance and how to improve BOTH.
• How to find obscure keywords that you can rank for quickly to boost sales.
• The 2 biggest mistakes sellers make when it comes to merchandising and how to fix them easily.
• How to get feedback faster and easier on product designs so that you don’t waste time or money on products or merchandising that’s likely to fail.
• How to use AI to quickly synthesize what your competitors are doing well, what they’re doing poorly, and what you should do about it.
• Using AI to get a clear picture of your ideal buyer.
• How stacking small changes can allow you to double or triple sales year over year.

Transcript:

Brandon:

I got off the stage. I walk into the hallway, a guy chases me into the hallway from the audience and says, that's my listing. I said, do me a favor and please change your title tonight. Like literally, here's the suggested title that I gave in the talk. He comes back to me the next night, we're out of social after a whole day of audience, he had his team change it. He comes back to me and he shows me a screenshot of 20 different keywords that have gone from either not indexed to top 10 immediately and says, credit

Brett:

In the bank, let's utilize that.

Brandon:

Yeah, he said, we did the math on this. We're going to make over a hundred thousand dollars more profit this year just from that one change.

Brett:

It's time for another spicy curry hot. Take the part of the show when I get just a little bit spicy. So here's the hot take for this show. You're likely focusing on the wrong keywords. Either you're shooting too big or you're not shooting for what's relevant or you're not looking at what are the untapped opportunities. Example, let's say you sell toiletries bags. Should you just go after the keyword, toiletries bags, or should you think about something more specific? Maybe you sell toiletry bags for men. Maybe they're leather. Maybe there's a waterproof component on the inside. So I think you want to look at what problem does your product solve? What are the opportunity keywords out there? What could you be relevant for and what's going to move the needle? And then are you thinking about untapped things like, I didn't even know this, but DOP kit is another word for a toiletries bag.

So focus on the right keywords and look for untapped opportunities. That's where you're going to create a compounding effect. Little wins with little untapped keywords will snowball, and then you go after the big stuff after that. So focus on the right keywords. Well, hello and welcome to another edition of the E-Commerce Evolution Podcast. I'm your host, Brett Curry, CEO of OMG Commerce, and today my guest is Brandon Young from DataDive and Seller Systems. This cat is an eight figure seller on Amazon, and so we're going to talk about how can you double your traffic and conversions on Amazon by digging into the data and understanding things that most people don't understand and finding obscure keywords and obscure opportunities and leveraging AI and understanding the algorithm and all kinds of fun stuff. I first met Brandon in Fort Lauderdale. We were both speaking at Seller Summit.

Shout out to Steve and Tony. Awesome event. You saw on Amazon, you got a 10 seller summit in the future. We both spoke there. I heard his presentation and I was blown away, and so I had to get him on the podcast. And then I also found out my team loves the tool that he designed. So data dive. It's an amazing keyword research tool. My team uses it on the Daily, and so I was just thrilled to meet Brandon and now pumped to have 'em on the show. So with that, Brandon, how you doing, man? Thanks for coming on and welcome to the show,

Brandon:

Brett. I really appreciate you having me on. It was really great to meet you at Steve's event. Can't say enough about how awesome Steve is, and it's such a little known secret, his event because he caps it on only a couple hundred sellers. He wants it to be intimate, and I tell him he could have 2000 people on an event with his following and with the following he has, but he doesn't like it. He wants it to just be one-on-one.

Brett:

Yeah, which I love that about scb and Tony as well. They've designed the event to be what they want and like an event that they enjoy attending. So a couple hundred people, those are my favorite events too. I like the big ones as well. I like speaking on big stages. That's fun. But connections community that you make in a smaller event is super cool. Really good stuff. So I'm going to send Steve and Tony an invoice for our promoting of the Seller Summit here. So you're welcome guys. But man, really excited to dive into this topic. We're going to talk ai, we're going to talk algorithm. We're going to talk.

Brandon:

Sorry to interrupt you, Brad. This is really important. We did not address Steve properly. He is now a bestselling author,

Brett:

Bestselling author, Steve Chu, which I know want him amazing props with his mom, who all of us in the e-commerce space, and I get this all the time as an agency owner, our parents, our aunts and uncles grandparents, they have no idea what we do. And Steve always makes jokes about that. His parents are like, why don't you get a job, Steve? Why don't you just get a job? I don't know what you're doing, but he got the bestseller with Family First Entrepreneur and now his mom thinks he's cool. So that's definitely a win. So y man, I'm super excited about this. So let's talk about the fact that you are an eight figure seller. That is pretty elite status. So talk about that. How'd you get started and how did you go from where most people play to the eight figure

Brandon:

Mark? Yeah, I appreciate that. We started, it was my wife and I when we were dating, we decided to start a business and we figured out what F B A was from a buddy. To me, it just clicked that that was such a scalable business model because we could leverage the billions of dollars in infrastructure that Amazon has. I don't need my own warehouse, my own employees, my own packing materials, and I don't need to ship anything myself. So I could focus on some levers that really drive growth, like product development and getting the inventory in. So we started with wholesale and liquidation, and then in 2016 we went to Canton because my wife now my wife, we got married in 2017. She is originally from China, and I looked at her and we looked at each other. I'm like, why are we not doing private label? We have a huge advantage here. So from 2017 on, we just kept scaling, doubling and tripling almost year over year. Last year we did 22 million, and this year we should do about 32 million.

Brett:

It's insane, man. So cool. Kudos to you guys. I love the way you frame that. We're leveraging the billions of dollars and infrastructure and ads and everything that Amazon's doing, and you're focusing on a few key levers, growth levers that you can pull to create really outsized returns. And so love this. Several things we're going to dig in there. We're going to talk about the algorithm. We're going to talk about under leveraged and underoptimized listings. We're going to talk about AI and some other cool tools you guys have developed, but let's talk about the algorithm first. So maybe give us an overview, your overview of the Amazon algorithm, and then let's maybe dig into some things that people are not aware

Brandon:

Of. Well, this part usually puts people to sleep, so we got to warn, pause, get some coffee, do some dumping jacks,

Brett:

Slap yourself. This will make you a lot of money. This may not be exciting, but it'll make you lots of cash. And cash is exciting.

Brandon:

Okay, good. I'm a data guy, so this stuff really, I get geeked out by it and I get excited by it, but a lot of people are just glosses over them. So data

Brett:

Tells a story though, and I know that's part of what data uncovers what's happening and what you need to do. So there's a story there. You just got to figure out what that story

Brandon:

Is. Yeah, exactly. And so Amazon needs to figure out the order that products show up on different search terms. And so a lot of people, the first, the primary is that Amazon is a search engine. It's not just a marketplace. So you really have to understand how that works. Then you have to understand that they're going to

Brett:

Reward. It's still product discovery, and sorry to interrupt you, but I think this will just be a good setup is still the vast majority of product discovery on Amazon. It's still done through search. There's the also bot, there's other places you can discover products, but it's still largely driven by

Brandon:

Search. Yeah, a hundred percent. What I'd say is there's two elements to the way that Amazon's going to decide where to rank you on which keywords you should show up. And the first part is a bucket we'll call performance. And then the other bucket we're going to call relevancy. And so the relevancy piece is really just a multiplier. So if you think about it this way, your bucket of performance is going to be your click-through rate. So how many times does your listing show up on a search result and how often do people search it? And then it's going to be your conversion rate. So once someone clicks on it, how often are they purchasing it? And then it's going to be your overall revenue that you're driving, which is a big part of it because Amazon wants to get that sweet commission from you. Amazon

Brett:

Takes a cut of that, so they want to maximize it. Yeah.

Brandon:

The other part of it is going to be that multiplier of relevancy. And the way that that works is that if you are selling a dog bowl and someone searches for dog food, they don't want your dog ball to show up, what they'll do is on the relevancy piece, they're going to make that number less than one. It might be 0.4 or 0.2 basically meaning that it's going to reduce that overall rank number that you have. If you consider it, I just got a quantifiable number of what my product score is from ranking potential and I multiply it by a number that's less than one, then that number goes down. So for every single keyword, every single keyword on Amazon, you're going to have a rank score, and then that rank score is made up of those two things. It's going to be that performance times that relevancy.

And so once we started to figure out how that works, then we realized that it can't be calculated daily. It has to be calculated over time. So then what happens is Amazon's going to run that calculation and then it's going to run it again for a three day average and then like a seven day average, a 15 day average, a 30 day average, a six month average, and so on. But they can't value all those things the same because they want products to be able a trend in the right direction to improve and things like that. So what they do is they value the newer data more. So your one day average, your three day average, your seven day average is going to be weighted more than your six month average for example. And so it started to really make sense that when you're sitting there with a product that runs out of stock for 30 days, it's really tough sometimes to recover because what happens is now you've got a bunch of zeros averaged into your performance, and so you've got your 1, 3, 7, 15, 30 day average all zeros, and all you've got is those longer term averages that are weighted less.

And so now you need to start accumulating positive history again, and it could take you another 30 days or more to really start to recover, which is expensive. You've got to spend money on marketing. You're not showing up organically. Most of your sales are P P C, and then that could be a vicious cycle because P P C converts less than organic usually, so your overall average is worse than it was before, and it becomes almost impossible sometimes with that spiral to recover. So we understand how the algorithm works, but more importantly we also understand how relevancy works. And so relevancy to make that number one, two things have to happen. You're going to get two different ways that relevancy is calculated. The first is that where the keyword is in your listing matters. So title is worth more than your bullets. So if you're in the title, you might get a multiplier of one, and if you're in the bullets, you might get a multiplier of 0.8 or 0.9.

It's going to be less. So someone that really wants to rank for a product, you'll notice. And then where it is in the title matters too, the beginning of the title is worth more than the middle of the title. So you'll notice that sometimes people will just write a title with a long tail keyword in the beginning and they're ranking in the top three for that keyword, but the really popular, also relevant high search volume keyword, they're number 20, right? And it's like why are they winning this long tail keyword when the better listings that outperform them, they sell more units are winning the other keywords, the higher search volume keywords, and the reality is it's because of the way they wrote the listing. They're getting more value there and more rank potential is what we call it. The last part of that is going to be the match type.

So if you write your keyword that someone searches in exact form, meaning that if I want to sell a diaper bag and I say, okay, I want a diaper bag backpack. If I write diaper bag backpack at the beginning of my title and someone searches for diaper bag backpack, now I'm going to get what we call ranking credit. So this ranking credit is going to be a hundred percent of the credit toward into the bank of that keyword, but if I write backpack diaper bag, I'm not going to get a hundred percent of the credit. What I'm going to get is maybe 30% of the credit because that's what we call a broad match. It's the same keywords but out of order. So understanding that the order you write the words in the match type and where you write it matters, and then understanding how the algorithm works, we've been able to basically build a listing writer that will help you maximize the rank of your product to maximize the rank potential of your product. Whether you perform or not is going to be based on how you design the product and the competition.

Brett:

Yeah, I love that so much. So thinking about both performance and relevancy, and there's some similarities. I've been in the Amazon game for a long time since 2016, but go way back on the Google side, and there are some similarities here. Both Google and Amazon wanted delight users. They want to give people exactly what they're looking for. Where it varies a little though is Amazon's primary goal is to sell customers stuff. They want people to buy stuff. So that's where you as a seller and Amazon are totally aligned. However, Amazon doesn't care if it's your product or somebody else's product. They doesn't want customers to be happy. And so I think understanding it in those two veins is super, super important. Where do reviews, where do they play into that scenario? Where would you put those and how would you weight number and quality of reviews?

Brandon:

So to me, reviews are weighted a little bit in the algorithm, but not a lot. But what they matter is going to be on the performance. So if your reviews are worse than your competition, you're naturally just going to get less clicks. So your click-through rate's going to be lower and you're going to get less conversions. Your conversion rate's going to be lower, so it's going to impact you on that performance side more than it's going to impact you directly on where you rank.

Brett:

Totally makes sense, and this is one of those virtuous cycles. You get more clicks and you get more conversions, then Amazon's happy, they're going to show it more and the higher you rank and usually the higher your click-through rate is and things like that. So really, really cool. What are some of the things that you think people miss in relationship to the algorithm? Any kind of non-obvious things that are hidden in there that most sellers overlook or most sellers don't pay attention to?

Brandon:

So I think overall people try to write their listing and design their listing to maximize rank, right? This is the goal, but the two mistakes I see people make are going to be that they don't do enough product design and testing of content at all. Even if they think they do a lot, they might make one or two main images, maybe three main images that they test, but they don't spend enough time and effort on the content side. The other side is going to be on the product design altogether. What type of testing did you do with audiences to determine that you have the right to rank higher than the current incumbents, the best sellers that are already out there? Do you know for a fact or do you have a high level of confidence that you're going to outperform the best sellers? Once you come in, now you are competing against someone with lots of reviews, usually a good rating.

You're coming in and you're trying to be the new guy on the block. If you only have a similar performance when you test, let's say you pull a hundred people and it's like 50 50, when they see what the other one has done and the history they have, it's going to be very difficult to beat them if not impossible. So you've got to have a significantly better offer. You've got to have a significantly better design to be able to come into a market and beat them if it's just head-to-head. So the last piece that I think people don't spend enough time on is the keyword research. It's really understanding how many hundreds of keywords there are that drive sales for that product, not just the top five keywords. And so most people don't realize that there are many different ways people will search for a product because we are just a product of our upbringing and what we call something based on our local vernacular. So I'll give you an example, a toiletry bag for example. What do you call a toiletry bag? Do you have any other words or ways that you call it?

Brett:

It's not something I talk about a whole lot, but would a toiletries bag also be like a makeup bag?

Brandon:

So a makeup bag could be, but that would be more geared towards women. So have you ever heard the term DOP kit? No,

Brett:

Never heard of that. There

Brandon:

You go. That's the second or third most popular way to search for a toiletry bag.

Brett:

Wait, spell that for me.

Brandon:

D O P P kit.

Brett:

What parts of the country or world is do

Brandon:

Kit? Midwest, I guess

Brett:

Midwest. Interesting. I'm a Midwest guy. We call it toiletries. We must be like upper crust Midwest or something because I've never heard,

Brandon:

But I'm telling you, tens of thousands of searches a month for DOPP kit. And then you've also got bathroom bag, you've got travel bag, you've got men's travel bag, you've got men's bathroom bag, you've got all these different keywords that, and then you've got all the different material types. You've got leather, you've got any type of bag you've got there, canvas. So this is just an example for toiletry bag alone, you might have a hundred relevant keywords with a significant search volume, and you're really only when you write your listing based on what the research you've done and what you think, you're only going to hit 50, 60% of those keywords, 50 to 60% of that potential search volume is a better way to look at it. So what we've gotten really good at is saying, okay, how do we reverse engineer and find all those different ways people are searching?

How do we find all those keywords? And so there's a tool like Helium 10 that allows you to maybe do a reverse asin. So you can put a product in there and then it'll tell you all the keywords it's ranked for or indexed for and where they're ranked. Now that's helpful, but a product might be indexed for thousands of keywords, but index doesn't mean it's relevant. It just means that you could be on page 15 and doesn't matter. So how do you really start to take that data and make it useful? What we've done is we've started to look at the top 20 or 30 sellers, and then once you combine all of the keywords that all of them are ranked well for, and you eliminate the noise and you add a relevancy formula that helps sort all that out, now you've got just the keywords that drive sales for that product and a score on 'em like is it a loosely relevant or is it highly relevant and is it something I should be building into my title or is it something I should be targeting in the backend?

And so we really start to understand the whole picture, and it all stemmed from a mistake we made. We had a product that we launched and it was a toy that lights up, it's like a Lego type toy with lights inside of it, and it was really cool. I looked at it and it was a plane, it was a train. You could make it into any five or 10 or 15 shapes, and there was a competitor on the market. So I said, okay, well, they're doing well and they're in stores and we could sell that. It's cool. Every kid would want to have this. And we didn't sell more than five units. The problem was that we could not find keywords to rank it for because no one is going to search for Lego and then buy my random step. It's going to be almost impossible to maintain a rank on any Lego keyword because all the Legos are going to

Brett:

Be, you can't mention Lego. Lego is a brand term, so you can't really mention that in your listing.

Brandon:

Yeah, it's very difficult to maintain rank or get ranked or even on P P C. No one's going to click on it because if they search for Lego, they want Lego. So that's the question that I had to start answering, which was before I developed and launched and did anything with a product or even researched or validated or whatever, I had to answer the question, how are the current sellers getting their sales? What are the keywords driving sales? And can I duplicate or beat them? And if I answer those questions, then I'm going to have a very high batting average when it comes to finding, launching and developing products.

Brett:

I really like this and I like the way we're framing it here. I like the way you're framing it. It is kind of two parts. It's one part merchandising. How do you make your product jump off the shelf, so to speak, and make people want it, make sure that it looks unique and it answers that question of, okay, this is the product, this is what I'm hoping for and what I'm wanting, it's that zero moment of truth or first moment of truth that they used to be used on physical retail shelves and how do you make that thing jump off? And a lot of that's going to come back to user testing. So we're going to get into that in a minute. The other part is really SS e o, and that's actually the very first thing I did online was ss e os started doing s e O for Google back in 2004. A lot of similarities between SS e o on Google and on Amazon with a few key differences, but a lot of times we're like, Hey, I just want to rank for toiletries bag. Well, okay, good luck if you're just starting, that's going to take a little bit of time. But there's a lot of money in the long tail and the really long, more random, more specific keywords, there's a lot of money to be made there and things

Brandon:

That, well, not only that, right? I think that a lot of people underestimate those long tail keywords for helping to pad your metrics. We had talked about performance being a major part of your ranking, those long tail keywords that if they're super specific and relevant, you're going to convert much higher on those. So those being blended in, even if it is only a sale a day or a sale every other day, but you've got 50 of those keywords, that extra high conversion rate being averaged in is going to help you rank for those bigger

Brett:

Keywords, those click-through rates and conversion. It's a really high on long tail, which has a compounding effect as well. So that's great. Awesome. So let's talk more about that. So the keyword side of things, the relevancy side of things. So how are you uncovering that? So you're taking top sellers of a given product, cross-referencing what they're ranking for, applying a score, determining what of those keywords is actually moving the needle versus what's not, and then anything else you'd want to add to that, and then where do we go from

Brandon:

There? So the whole thing is once we understand how are they getting their sales and what can we duplicate? And what you'll find is a lot of the best sellers have what we call outlier keywords. These are going to be those generic keywords that you realistically can't duplicate. If you launch a brand new toy, you're not going to come in and rank for toys for three-year-old girls, right? It's just not going to happen. You can try, but you'll just fail miserably. You don't have that foundation of all those other relevant keywords. So what we're finding is that once we see and we can paint the accurate picture of the market and we can understand, okay, these best sellers are selling 6,000 units a month. The next guy's selling 4,000, the next guy's selling 2000, and then all these other guys in the middle are selling 1500 units and they're ranked for 60 to 70% of the search volume relevant search volume.

We see that that's kind of more in line of what we can expect to sell because we're not going to duplicate the success of these best sellers necessarily because they're ranked for almost all of the relevant search volume and they're ranked in the top of those search terms versus being in the 10 to 15 range, which is where you'll be in the first week to two weeks. So we really start to understand what can we realistically expect to sell? How many should we order? What are the keywords that these better sellers are ranked for that we can't duplicate and what can we duplicate? And so it's about painting the picture to make sure it makes sense and understanding if the market's too competitive or saturated or if there's not enough keywords. So really we get to answer all of those questions from good keyword research,

Brett:

Any anecdotes, any stories of, Hey, we uncovered these keywords for this product or for this category, we put them in the listing, we start focusing on it, and this is the impact that made.

Brandon:

Oh, hundreds and hundreds of those. So not just from me but from students or from users. I get sent screenshots on a regular basis where once you lay this out, for example in DataDive, you get what's called the master keyword list. And so it's what it sounds like. You got all the competitors laid across the top, you got all the keywords on the side, and then you got all the ranks. And so if you put your product on there and you're like, oh, wow, I just have this giant hole where I'm just ranked 35 or 55 for these keywords that all share the same root word, the same exact word in them, and you're like, well, what am I doing wrong? And then you go look at your listing, you realize you didn't write it in there, you don't have it in your listing. Amazon's not sure it's relevant.

So all you have to do is unlock that relevancy piece by writing it into your listing. So you might have multiple holes. What we recommend with a revamp is to go in and say, okay, pick one root word that you realize you have a weakness on. Put it in your title. Put the best keyword with that root word in your title and see what happens Within 6, 8, 10 hours, you're going to see a movement in your ranks. You're going to see a movement going up because you've established relevancy and now all of a sudden you had credit in the bank and now you unlocked it. That's the way it works now. Or what you took out of the title was more important, and now you see a downside on some, so you have to change the listing back right away, the title back right away. So we never recommend changing the whole title right away.

If you've got an existing listing, just maybe one keyword at a time, one root word at a time. But I'll give you an example. I was speaking at an event at Kevin King's billion dollar seller summit in Austin, and I was using a case study. I was randomly looking at card shuffler one time, and the bestselling card Shuffler was selling a lot more card than everybody else, but there were a few keywords that he was ranked maybe 35, 55, just not ranked well at all. And he was top three for every other keyword. And I was like, okay, well that's a clear sign to me that he's got credit in the bank for those keywords, but Amazon thinks it's not relevant. All of those keywords, the route that they shared was two deck, two deck shuffler, right? Or one was two to four deck. So the thing is he was selling a six deck shuffler that could also shuffle two decks.

I gave the example. I said, look, without a doubt, if this guy goes in, he's got credit in the bank, if he changes and just adds two deck into his title, he's immediately going to rank better for those keywords. And I got off the stage, I walk into the hallway, a guy chases me into the hallway from the audience and says, that's my listing. I said, do me a favor and please change your title tonight. Literally, here's the suggested title that I gave in the talk. He comes back to me the next night, we're out of social after a whole day of audience, he had his team change it. He comes back to me and he shows me a screenshot of 20 different keywords that have gone from either not indexed to top 10 immediately and says, credit

Brett:

In the bank, let's utilize that. Yeah,

Brandon:

He said, we did the math on this. We're going to make over a hundred thousand dollars more profit this year just from that one change.

Brett:

But that's something you wouldn't have thought of because it's a six deck. It's not a two shuffler, but when you understand that, yes, but it'll also shuffle just two decks if you want to do that. And that's what people are looking for and that's how you become relevant and that's how you sell more units. And so that is awesome. So that's the SS e o side. I know we could talk all day about that. There's more resources on your site and your podcast where people can dig into that. So we'll talk about that later. But let's talk about the merchandising piece. And I know this is something you're very passionate about, that a lot of sellers are just trying to sell something without clear differentiation or without understanding what does the marketplace actually want. So what do you recommend when it comes to testing your product and testing some of your merchandising elements like pictures and design features and things like

Brandon:

That? So one of the, after I validate a product that I want to do it, I have to figure out how I'm going to win. So one of my favorite things to do is to work on the design side. And for the last eight months or so, since the beginning of the year, I've been playing with Mid Journey. So Mid Journey as an AI text, two image generator. And so you type what you want it to generate an image of and it pops it out. And so I've realized that the skill that you're going to need moving forward is going to be what they call prompt engineering. It's going to be how do you talk to this AI to have it give you back what you want? And so I've taken two trips to China this year because I've spent so much time doing custom products, and we have a travel brand, we have a toy brand, and so we are just designing a ton of characters and the usual unicorns and princesses and mermaids and dinosaurs and stuff.

So just spending a ton of time developing new characters. And so once I look at the incumbents or the best sellers, I take their product. Now, if I just need to design the character, I design the character, my team puts it on the product, but sometimes I can get the AI to give me the full product already done with the image I want. And so straight out of communicating with this ai with Mid Journey, I can take that image and I can take the main image of the top three sellers and I can go into a product like a software like pfu, and we can ask 50 people, which one would you want to buy? And if I'm getting more than 50% of the votes against the top three bestsellers that are already on the market, I know I've got a slam dunk. And then so

Brett:

I love that tool, by the way. It's an underrated tool. And I know we're talking ai, we're talking a lot about a lot of things, but pick Fu John and Pick, I think hes one of the founders or whatever, but such a simple affordable tool, but yeah, allows you to get feedback from real people on which image do you prefer, which product would you buy? Things like that, that really can save you so much time, so much money, and really just set you up

Brandon:

For success. And just on LinkedIn, I posted a slushy cup. I was in a talk showing my inner circle. I've kept my AI product development stuff kind of more tight because I think it's really going to disrupt the market. If you're not using AI for product development, you're in a bad spot in six months, 12 months, you might not have a business. This is truly how fast I think product development will go moving forward. You can develop products a hundred times faster, a hundred times cheaper, and they will be better. You're going to convert, you're going to have better designs. And so the old style of waiting for a designer to give you back five concepts and then choosing the best one that wasn't really that great anyway is over. And so straight out of mid journey, you're about 90% of the way there. You have your designer clean it up and then make a decent main image out of it, and then you compare it.

And so just in the class where I was showing the strategies around how to prompt the prompt engineering class, I asked for a suggestive product and someone said a slushy cup. And now I made a Spider-Man slushy cup because first of all, I'm not going to get the licensing to make a Spider-Man slushie cup from Disney. Maybe with this cup I could if I send it to them, to the right IP legal team or whoever's in charge of it over there. But it was just as an example, this cup is 10 times better than anything currently being sold on the market, any of the current bestsellers that are crushing. And what I can do,

Brett:

We can show up for those that are watching the video, and then we'll post a link and actually, hey, if you only listen to the show, which is totally fine, by the way, check out the YouTube video, check out the YouTube channel or check out. That's a really good point. The podcast site@omgcommerce.com on your podcast. See, I excited to see this slushy cup. Now I will confess I'm not 100% certain. I know what you mean by slushy cup.

Brandon:

So this is a new product that you free some stuff, then you add some juice and you squish it together. It's like silicone. You squish it together, and what ends up happening is you make it into a little slushy at home. It's like an at-home slushy type thing, but the designs are so generic, just absolutely a generic. So

Brett:

Now as a preview, what we're about to see, this was just AI generated. So you worked with AI through prompts and Mid Journey and that's how you designed this?

Brandon:

Yeah, all I did was say make me a Spider-Man slushie cup. But I did it in a certain way with certain features and prompted it in the right way, but it wasn't that difficult to get to this product.

Brett:

Dude, that's pretty sick. So we got it. For those that are just watching, it's like a closeup of the Spider-Man face mask or the mask. So the eyes are real big. It's got a pretty cool, I can't tell what's going on with the lid actually from my vantage point. But yeah,

Brandon:

There's no lid currently on this. The lid is going to be separate to put on to drink out of, but it shows the slushie spilling over the top.

Brett:

Dude, that's pretty sweet, man. If I was like a eight year old boy, I would totally rock that slushy cup. You're going

Brandon:

To buy that or your parents are going to buy it instead of a generic one. I could charge twice as much as the current bestsellers and they're going to be like, man, I got to get my kid the Spider-Man one. I got to do it. But I'm doing so many products, I've got hundreds of products right now. I'm going back through my catalog. And one of the things that you need to understand also is that I need to go disrupt myself. I'm going back to my current bestsellers and I'm saying that's not going to be good enough six months from now and I'm making 60, 80, a hundred sales a day better

Brett:

You disrupt yourself than somebody else. So you've got to be preemptively thinking this top seller won't be the top seller forever. So what's next?

Brandon:

What is next? And how do I beat myself? And so I have a list of new products we're developing. I have a list of existing products I need to add variations or new heroes and really just update designs on and just keep outwork the competition so that we can scale to that 50 million mark next year.

Brett:

Love it. That's awesome, man. Any other tips or insights or resources on how do we make sure we're really leveraging the design? I think you've mentioned to me something about you've got a new tool that mines reviews from competitors' products and gives you a summary of what's there.

Brandon:

So it's a product brief tool that this is all the work that we would do with developing a product anyway. We need to go in and see what are the features that we need to add into the product. So if I'm handing a product brief to a factory and I say, okay, needs to have these types of zippers, this many pockets, it needs to have this functionality. Let's say a diaper bag for example. It needs to have a cooler pocket in the front. It needs to come with a changing pad, it needs to have stroller straps, it needs to have a security pocket in the back. But the way that I would come to that conclusion is that I would have to spend dozens of hours going through the top 2030 sellers looking at all their reviews, looking at the features that they all have, finding out what people want, what they don't want, reading the questions and the answers.

Every single product you develop, you need to be doing that. But now AI can do that in a matter of minutes for you instead of dozens and dozens of insane hours. So the tool we just released in the DataDive is the AI product brief tool. You select the competitors, you hit a button and it comes back and it spits out all this information. It tells you these are all the features they all claim to have. You can check 'em off and say, okay, I want that one, I want that one, I want that one. These are all the things people say they don't like about it. These are all the things people say they like about it. Here's some suggested improvements that the AI thinks you should make into the product. And the AI gets involved in helping you develop the product

Brett:

Better. It's reading all the negatives in all the positives, and it's making inferences there and it's saying, okay, this is what we would do.

Brandon:

And then even based on what they figured out the product is, they come back and tell you the top eight avatars, the top eight buyer personas that would buy this product and why they buy it, which to me is magical because you're a marketer as well. So you know that you need to trigger someone's buying a part of their brain. Why are they buying this? What is the value to them? What is that trigger to get them to pull the

Brett:

Trigger? And it's one of those things where the more you understand about your customer, the more directly you can speak to them, the more directly you can design for them, the better you'll be able to zero in on the right keywords when you understand that avatar. And that's something that I think a lot of business owners, and I would say Amazon sellers are definitely in this category. You don't really know who your buyer is. You don't really understand them at a deep level. Now I'm curious, how is the AI by looking at that? How are they understanding who the avatars

Brandon:

Are? Look, I don't know how they do it, but it's pretty magical. So it's just inferring based on the product type and then it's knowledge based pulling from its G PTT category,

Brett:

Product type keywords. Look at all that.

Brandon:

Yeah, so it's inferring based on the questions, the answers, the reviews, the type of product, and it just kind of digs through the whole world wide web and says, okay, these are the top eight people that would buy this product pretty insane. And then after you've selected everything you want, you got those suggestions, you hit a button and it generates the brief that you can now hand to your factory and say, this is how you make a much better product than what's on the market.

Brett:

Dang. So going from idea to really doing all the research that you want to do, putting that together really. Now, and you mentioned this with Mid Journey as well, where you're getting a starting point now with AI and then you're refining it, you're getting a starting point here with AI and you're letting it do all the legwork, then you're refining it. We're not just letting AI do all the work, right? It's not ready for that yet. It may never be, but it is very much ready to do the initial grunt work. And then you're refining and polishing and getting ready and then taking action from

Brandon:

There. And all of that is after you've already validated the product from a keyword perspective. So you look at the competition, you understand that you can beat them from a S E O perspective. Now it's just a matter of making a better design.

Brett:

Brandon, this has been awesome. We could dig into each of these topics at link, but we are up against time. So let's do a couple of things. Let's talk about data Dive specifically. And as I mentioned Team O M G, we love DataDive. We use it on the daily in our agency, but how can someone learn more about DataDive and who did you design DataDive for?

Brandon:

I appreciate that. We designed it for ourselves really. So the reality is we were developing these same exact processes to validate products and choose products back in 2016. This is maybe even back as far as 20 16, 20 17 before Helium 10 even was out. We were piecing together keyword data from seller labs and from viral launch. And so we were having to do VLOOKUPs and try to match keyword search volumes, try to understand who was ranked for what and what keywords were driving sales. And this is all after we made those mistakes. And really I was like, before I pull the trigger on another product, I want to know how I'm going to sell it. That's it. That was like, and I need to know that. And that's where we started. So then once Helium 10 came out and Cerebro came out, we started pulling. They allowed you to start pulling 10 competitors at once.

We would pull that raw data and start manipulating the data. We did that for every single product that we've developed. And then I started teaching in 2018 with seller systems and we started teaching how to manipulate the data and how to create this master keyword list manually where this changes is. A few years ago, two and a half years ago now, my now C T O joins, he was formerly the c e O of the largest development firm out of Romania. And he's semi-retirement, starting a business in retirement and stumbles across me and says, I'll learn how to sell on Amazon. Now I can do it from anywhere and I don't want to work 90 hours a week anymore. But the first thing he says to me when he watches the first class, he dms me. He's like, why is this not a software? This needs to be a software. There's a lot of work that could just be automated. He's like, with your permission, I want to hack together like a Google sheet that has macros that can just do this automatically. And I am not looking to make money on it all. Let the community use it as well. I said, yeah, for sure. We have an abundance mentality. We're all about it for sure. It leaks out of my inner circle. Within two weeks we had 2000 people using it.

Brett:

We might be onto something. I

Brandon:

Said, okay, well we've got product market fit. I said, maybe we should put some money behind this. And so here I am. I'm nearly $3 million invested into this software now, and it does

Brett:

So many people, I don't think people fully understand because we tried to build just a small tool for our agency. Dude, it's so expensive. So yes, software and SaaS maybe may feel expensive to some people, but dude, it takes immense amount of capital to build it and then to maintain it. And yeah, so hats off to you guys for doing that.

Brandon:

No, I appreciate it. Yeah, luckily we're blessed. We do well with our brands. We do well with the coaching, and so we've just been pouring our extra money into the software to keep building it, bootstrapping it, but I'm also impatient, and so I don't do anything unless I'm going to do it big. So I said, I'm not going to have five programmers and take three years to do this. We ramped up to over 20 programmers and really have just been hammering out tools and staying on top of it. And so the fundamentals are, it gives you that master keyword list. It has a product scorecard to give you a quantifiable number as to what the potential risk of doing a product is. So it helps you look at things like R O I, how good the images are for the competitors, the SS e o of the competitors, just all the different elements you'd want to answer before you pull the trigger on a product.

And it gives you a quantifiable score whether you should move forward with that product. We have a listing writer that takes into account the algorithm and gives you a quantifiable score of your rank potential. So we think it's the best in the market. The new AI tool we just launched there yesterday as well is we tap the AI to write your bullets, but we do it in a way where we're telling the AI and we're telling you which keywords to make sure you still include. So anyone can just throw a listing or ask chat G B T to write their listing. But that's not going to rank for all the reasons we talked about earlier in the show, which is you need to know what keywords to put where and in what order. And so you need to know the data first, and then you need to have the AI write it in a way that also incorporates those keywords.

So we did it in that order. The AI tool now writes your bullets and does it to maximize rank. We also have some P P C tools. We have a really unique way of doing P P C as well. We group our P P C keywords based on root word. So we want to make sure that they share a common word or phrase because what we found is that keywords that share a common word or phrase will perform similarly. So if I'm talking about all the keywords that have gray diaper bag and there's a lot of long tail keywords that have gray diaper bag, I'll put five of those together, those all should still perform pretty similarly. So I'm not getting something performing good and something performing bad in the same ad group. And what that does is it helps boost the quality score of that campaign. It lowers your cost per click faster. It's just a much better way to optimize as well. So the software helps you do that. Then we've got a dashboard. We've got a keyword tracker that's in beta. We've got a dashboard and some P P C tools coming out as well. So a lot of development, a lot of things we're doing

Brett:

Totally worth checking out. So DataDive tools, get it, data dive tools, check that out. Also seller systems.com. If you're interested in coaching or learning, I would

Brandon:

Love to have your audience get a discount code with your code.

Brett:

Let's do it, man. Let's do a discount code. Why not?

Brandon:

So for anyone listening, if you use the code O M G, you will get $50 off per month on DataDive Sweet, and you will get a thousand dollars off if you join my mastermind. The inner circle, we've got over a thousand members in there, over 407 and eight figure sellers all helping each other. Weekly calls, five to 10 live classes a month, lots of live events in person. So

Brett:

That is a deal. $50 off a month for DataDive and then a thousand dollars off seller systems code O M G, write that down, utilize that.

Brandon, been a ton of fun, man, super informative. I'm all jazzed up as a result of this conversation. Thanks Brandon, and thank you for tuning in. And as always, we'd love to hear from you. What would you like to hear more of on this show? If you haven't done it already, leave us that review on iTunes. Also connect with me on the socials. I'm getting pretty active on LinkedIn, almost daily posting on LinkedIn. Brandon's a good fall on LinkedIn too, so check out Brandon there as well. And with that, until next time, thank you for listening.

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Post-purchase surveys can teach you a lot about your customers, and no one knows that better than my most recent guest, Trevor Crump. 

Trevors is the co-founder of Bestie, which is one of the fastest-growing post-purchase apps on Shopify. 

We talked about the key questions you should ask your customers and how you can turn their answers into extra cash! 

Make sure you give this episode a listen to learn key things like...

• The 3 questions that need to be on your post-purchase survey. 
• Where your customers are coming from (because we all know how hard attribution can be). 
• What Trevor has learned from running one of the most popular post-purchase survey apps on Shopify. 
• Plus, some of the most surprising things surveys can reveal. 

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Transcript:

Trevor:

So one of the things we talk a lot about is you've got this, there's a lot of trends out there that merchants follow. Oh, I'm seeing a lot of people do use U G C right now, so I'm going to create U G C. I see a lot of people creating listicle ads such as for the five reasons why I bought Tushy or whatever. And so I think that there's this two-tone approach that you need to go about. The brand should go about things. One is I think that following trends can be great. Try to be early in some of those trends because you'll see that U G C is still super important, but it is not doing what it used to do and people are starting to see through a lot of it. So you got to go a little bit deeper.

Brett:

It's time for this spicy curry hot. Take the segment of the show when I get just a little bit spicy. Let me quote Mark Twain for you. He said, it's not what we don't know that gets us into trouble. It's the things we know for certain that just ain't. So. Now I believe what we don't know about our customers is hurting us, but I also believe there's some deeply held beliefs, myths we have about our customers that just aren't true. As an example, I think a lot of people believe they know the reason their customers buy from them, but often they're off base. So one of the things we talk about in this show is a brand who believed the two main reasons people bought from them were one, cost savings, and two, the fact that their product was environmentally friendly. It turned out as they asked their customers, less than 10% of people believe those two reasons were important in purchasing.

And so can you imagine what if you were crafting all of your sales pitches in a way that only landed with one out of 10 in your audience, or you could shift it? And when you really know why people buy now, you can craft your message so that it strikes a chord with nine out of 10 of your ideal prospects. So what myths do you have that need to be busted? Hopefully we'll answer that on this show. Hot Take over. Well, hello and welcome to another edition of the E-Commerce Evolution podcast. I'm your host, Brett Curry, c e o of o m g Commerce. And today we're talking about do you really know your customer? Do you know them as well as you think? Do you, I mean, do you really, really know them? Because if you knew your customers better, I bet you do at least a few things differently. And so today my guest is Trevor Crump. He is one of the co-founders of Bestie Bestie app, and so excited about this topic. I'm very passionate about it. I love the tool that Trevor and team have designed. Trevor is a fellow podcast host, so when you get two podcast guys together, it's going to be a little bit nutty. It's going to probably go off the rails, it's going to be valuable, but it may go off the rails. So with that, Trevor, how's it going, man? Welcome to the show and thanks for taking the time.

Trevor:

Yeah, man, I'm super excited to be here. Really, really appreciate it. Yeah, I actually love interviewing other podcast hosts because dude, so

Brett:

Fun.

Trevor:

It's a blast sometimes when you're interviewing somebody you never know, are they going to be short-winded? Are they going to be long-winded? Am I going to have to be cutting this person off? Am I going to have to be stretching for questions? And so sometimes the episode doesn't go where you think it should go, but it always turns out super entertaining and super valuable. And so I am a big fan of it, man.

Brett:

Yeah, me too. Because yeah, and really, I don't know which is worse, you have a guest who really doesn't say much. That's difficult, but you can also have someone that just doesn't know when to stop, and then you've got to interrupt because it needs to be a dialogue. If it's not a dialogue, it's not an interesting radio. And so yeah, I like interviewing podcast hosts as well, because what I'm always trying to do just for fun, when someone asks me a question, I'm a guest on another podcast, I'm trying to think how do I package this answer in a way that's authentic, meaningful, fun, but also where I don't talk for seven straight minutes because the host wants to talk to right? And the listener needs that. So that's awesome, man. So first of all, what is your pod and why did you start down the path of podcasting and yeah, tell us a little bit about that. Yeah,

Trevor:

So our podcast is called the Unstoppable Marketer. It's specifically meant to interview marketers and entrepreneurs in the D two C space. So we interview founders, we interview VPs of marketing, CMOs, et cetera. And it's just really to figure out where were you before, where are you now, where are you going and what are you doing to get there and what are some of those big mistakes? And so yeah, I've got a following on social media on Instagram and TikTok that's a decent size, and so was doing a really good job at the short form content side of things. At the time, our main business was actually a marketing agency. So rather than you're very specific on the YouTube side of things, Google side of things, we were very specific in TikTok and Meta. That was our big time breaded butter, little Google too as well, just as ancillary. But TikTok and Meta was where

Brett:

Supports it well, provides a good underpinning for TikTok and other socials. Google kind of closes the deal.

Trevor:

Yeah, absolutely. And so I was getting so much traction, so much interaction on my short form content that I needed to complete. We wanted to complete that funnel. And so we said, let's create a podcast for the people who I've just learned that anybody can be a short form content. It's pretty easy, especially with AI nowadays, if you're good at speaking, you can literally have AI write everything out for you. And as long as you can present it, you can look like you're super knowledgeable when you may not be. And so we said, let's create a podcast, and me and my business partner, we love to just talk and we love to meet other people. And so we created the podcast and it's been awesome ever since. Man, it's been really successful. It's got us a lot of good contacts and also a lot of business.

Brett:

That's one of my favorite parts about the podcast is just the people you meet. You get to hang out for an hour with smart people like you, grilling you with questions and learning, and you get to share that with people. And you're right, you can fake a two minute, one minute TikTok video. It's pretty hard to fake a 45 minute interview. And so the truth comes out when you go long form, which is super fun. So let's dive into a few things. First of all. So to kind of have a preview for the audience, we're going to talk about how do we get to know our customers better? How do we craft surveys, what do we ask? When do we ask it? How do we then use that to improve all the metrics we love like lowering CAC and raising L T V and all kinds of good stuff. So I can't wait to get into that. Also, going to talk about some surprising lessons like, hey, you thought this about your customer, but then actually the opposite was true. So we're going to get into that in a minute. But you ran an agency and then you pivoted to bestie app. Talk to us about that. Why'd you make the pivot? When did that happen? Why did that happen?

Trevor:

Yeah, super good question, man. Actually, before I started the agency, I was formerly A C M O for a big eight figure brand out here in Salt Lake City called Fond Design, which is a women's diaper bag and accessory company. And at the time, this was back in 2018, attribution tools were really, really expensive. I mean, they still are, right? But they were really expensive back then, and I could not convince my C M O or not my cmo, my C F O to get us, give me the budget for an attribution tool. And so we just were doing a little research, we were trying to figure some things out at the time, back in 2018, it was over attributing everything to us. So now it's under attributing. Back then it was over attributing meaning like Klaviyo, if my Shopify said I made a million bucks that month, Klaviyo's telling me that I made 500,000. Facebook's telling me I made 700,000. Google's telling me I made 300,000, but I'm only making a million, right? Yeah.

Brett:

So according to all the tools, the aggregate of 2 million, but you only made a million. And so yeah, exactly one over index thing over attributing. Now post I was 14 really under attributing,

Trevor:

Right? A hundred percent. So it's like, Hey, we got to figure this out. So we were just doing, me and my e-comm director, we were doing some just brainstorming and we saw that our email open rate for our thank you email was like 80% right? And normally our open rates back then were like 20, 30%. And I'm like, holy cow, 80% open rate, 50% click-through rate. This is massively valuable real estate. It's that confirmation, Hey, your order was placed. Here's your shipping information. So we just got a freemium account on SurveyMonkey and we asked three questions. We said, Hey, how did you hear about us? What brought you to the website today? And how long have you known about us? And let's see if that just information gives us some solid information. And we started learning things about our customer that we had no idea, and it became the most pivotal piece of the puzzle when it came to us understanding how our customers heard about us.

And so we started running surveys like crazy through that. So the moment we got enough attribution surveys, then we started asking questions about why they were buying the product. Then we started asking questions about who they were, what podcasts they listened to, what influencers they followed. And it just became the catalyst to so much that we did. And so fast forward, it helped us scale from this seven figures to an eight figure business. Fast forward back to this agency and we just kept finding that a lot of D two C brands, all these companies that we're working with these merchants, none of 'em were talking to their customers. The way they were talking to their customer was usually through dms or an Instagram poll. That was the majority of their conversations. And so we thought, Hey, listen, remember we did this back then let's find a way to automate this and build this process out and really help brands get a better qualitative understanding of who their customer is and what makes them tick. And so we started to develop bestie in 2022, just going through developers overseas and contractors and Fiverr and going down all these routes. And eventually we came with product market fit in first of this year, got approved on the Shopify app store and really just started grinding and getting more and more customers and the rest has been history.

Brett:

Love it, man. And I know you guys are really growing rapidly and I love this process. So let's talk about those three questions for just a minute. And you guys went low tech, right? Or lower tech, right? You used that thank you email. You used SurveyMonkey, right? We got inexpensive tools available if you need 'em. And I know Bessie is inexpensive as well, but yeah, you hear about us, what brought you here today and how long have you known about us? And I think once you get these answers, then it just blows your mind. You're like, wait a minute, I didn't know that. And now that I know that, now I want to know more. And once I know more, then we can start changing things. And so what were some of the surprising things you guys learned? And you said that was called Fawn Design was the name of the brand. What were some of the surprising things you learned in that first round of questions?

Trevor:

Two really big things that we learned. One thing that we learned was that 40% of our audience, the first time they heard about us was through word of mouth. So that was the biggest channel. And as you know, there's no attribution tool that can account for word of mouth. There will be. And so we always had this fear of, okay, hey, we're at our highest CAC possible right now, so any more money we spend, we start to go over that CAC and things become inefficient. And so that was a huge learning is we were stuck in this spend of 50,000, $60,000 a month. And when we saw that, it's like, okay, hey, 40% of our customers first heard about us through other people buying the bags and then walking around with them. So essentially the way we sell more bags is by selling more bags. Exactly. Does that make sense?

Brett:

Each bag you sell is now a

Trevor:

Walking advertisement

Brett:

Billboard. And now that new customer is not just the value of the new customer, but now they're going to be attracting other customers.

Trevor:

Well, not only that, but moms, if anything about the mom world, anything that helps moms be better moms or look like better moms from a style aesthetic perspective, they are going to shout it from the rooftops all. Absolutely. So not only did we say let's try doubling spend and just see what happens. Can I get approval from our C ffo and can we go from 50 grand a month to a hundred thousand dollars a month and just see what happens

Brett:

There? The CFO didn't sleep good that night. Trevor, the CFO was like, man, I don't want to release this money. But

Trevor:

After 40 days, all of a sudden, like CAC went up a little bit, but it was like, Hey, just keep with it, keep with it, keep with it. The other thing that we learned was that our buying cycle was under 30 days. So that was the other thing for us. So it was like, okay, cool. We theoretically should see the fruits of the labors of the word of mouth by doubling our spend within a month here. So it's not like we're going to have to go six months and hope this is going to work and have a really, really bad CAC for six months, but then it's going to start to get better. So that was huge for us.

Brett:

Love that. So you found this key insight word of mouth is driving 40% of business, so let's just sell more bags to sell even more bags, but then knowing 30 day selling cycle, we don't have to commit to a test for that long, so let's commit to a test for 30, 40 days now we should be able to get some really meaningful data and see if our theory was correct.

Trevor:

Totally. And then the other thing that we did is we built, I know there's a lot of arguments and debates around loyalty programs if they work or not. And we took our stab at building a loyalty program because we thought that was a no brainer. If people are organically sharing about us, 40% of people are organically sharing about us. Let's build a loyalty program. And the original loyalty program we built didn't work very well for us. We did just your standard loyalty program that you're going to find on any other website, and it just ended up being more work to the customer to go through those hoops and they were going to share about it anyway. But what we actually ended up doing that started moving the needle big time is we created incentives to say, Hey, not only if you shout to us, shout out to us on social media, we are going to refund five orders a week and we're going to give anybody who shouts to us, they're going to enter in a giveaway and get a hundred dollars off their next order. And so we just started doing a bunch of things like that that started getting us more content and more opportunities to work with new influencers. And yeah, it was awesome, dude. So that was one massive learning. I can go into a ton that we learned there, but yeah, it was really cool.

Brett:

Yeah, it's so good. And I think that's something to keep in mind is with loyalty programs, especially if you've got a product like this where tight community, it's beneficial to the shopper to share your product, makes them feel good, look good, all those things people are going to share anyway. So if you create a loyalty program, it's overly complex, overly hard to understand and feels like a lot of work, you're not gaining any ground. So people are going to share anyway. But I love this where just make it fun, make it random, make it like, Hey, you're going to share anyway. We will do these little fun things and celebrate it. So shout at us on social media and we'll make it worth your while. Super, super smart. Let's dive in then, and we'll probably drill into some other lessons there from Fawn because I am interested in that, but I want to shift fast forward a little bit. So now with Bestie, I know you're working with lots of different brands. What are some of the scenarios where brand thought one thing was true about their customer? Did a survey found actually that the opposite or something totally different was true? Let's talk about some examples.

Trevor:

Maybe the first one that comes to my mind and I say these people, they've given us permission to talk about this story. So there's a brand out there called pajamas. And Pajamas is like a built-in potty training aid for parents who are trying to teach their kids how to not wet the bed at night. So essentially it's like reusable diapers that you can rewash, kids can pee in it and it doesn't soak their bed. And when they originally came to their agency, they said, Hey, people buy us for two reasons. They buy us because it saves them money and diapers cost a lot of money, number one, so it's going to save you money. And number two reason is it's going to save the environment because I think every pull-up takes 15 years to decompose. And so there was this big eco push that they were trying to go.

So sure enough, the agency that they're working with creates all the content around those two solutions. And because this is such a problem solution product, people see it and problem solution products tend to sell themselves usually. Now when you really hit on the actual reason somebody buys it, they sell 10 x more. So they were running those ads for quite some time. And then we got bestie set up and we said, Hey, I know that these are the two reasons why you say people are buying from you, but what if we just created a survey and we asked one question and the question just said, what motivated you to buy pajamas today? And we listed those two right cost savings, and then we added three or four more responses with one open-ended response, like an other open-ended response. And after a week or so, we got enough statistical significance data that said, okay, let's see if eco-friendly and diaper savings costs are the number one and number two drivers and eco-friendly accounted for about 7% of the reason why people purchased and cost savings accounted for about 9%. Wow.

Brett:

So two of the lower priority reasons that people are purchasing that. Really interesting. So what were the winners?

Trevor:

The number one, which was 53% over half the time somebody's buying was they wanted to shorten the window it took for them to potty train their child. So they didn't want to have a six, eight-year-old wedding, the bed they wanted to get them in, they wanted to fix that, nip that in the bud quicker. So that was the number one reason by 53% shortening up that window. And then the second reason, the second reason, which was like 24%, was to improve child's confidence. No five-year-old feels confident going to bed with a pull-up on, but if they're wearing pajamas, they don't feel like they're a little baby anymore.

Brett:

I love that so much. And as a parent, and I don't know if you know this, Trevor, a lot of the listeners do. My wife and I have eight kids, count 'em, eight

Trevor:

Kids. Oh my gosh,

Brett:

Dude, oldest is out of the house, second oldest is in college. Yeah, lots of kids. So dude, the number of, we calculated one time the number of pul numbers, number of diapers, and now I've forgotten, but I think it's like four to 8,000 to 6,000 per kid or something like that is the average. So you do the math there, it's an insane amount of pull-ups and diapers. They are expensive. What's really interesting, I think this is a difference between this is the business owner mindset. This is what we think is most important from a business standpoint. But then when you put your parent hat on and your parent lens on your parent glasses so to speak, this is what's important. But when you look at that, yes, we want to save money and yes, we want to save the environment, but what's interesting about the environmental issue is in surveys, we see that all the time show up way lower than the business owner thinks.

And that's not to say that you shouldn't be environmentally friendly, people do care about that, but it's just not at the top of the list when it comes to where am I going to spend my money? We think that it's, but in this case, yeah, it's my kid's confidence and my kid's psychology. I'm motivated for that. I'm motivated to spend money for that. And let's face it, man, I don't want to change wet sheets for the next five months next year. No way. If we can get this trained faster, let's do it right now. So love that. Kudos to you guys for asking the questions and really kudos to the business owner for being open to it because I think some business owners approach it, they're like, no, no, no, no, I know my customer. I know this is the reason. These are the reasons. But that ain't necessarily true. So love that. Any other kind of aha moments surprising? I thought this thing, it was actually the opposite.

Trevor:

Yeah, I think maybe another, okay, yeah, another one was there was a women's clothing boutique, and this one's a little bit more on the attribution side, on the women's clothing boutique. They're a big massive clothing boutique here in the Salt Lake area, and they kind of felt like they were hitting a wall when it came to their ad spend, right? Hey, nobody can really help us here. We just need to find either a good in-house marketer, a good agency who we can just trust that are going to spend our money effectively. This is what our CAC is, this is what our L T V is and this is what it's going to be. We're going to be an x million dollar a month business and that's it. And they kind of felt like that was their fate for a little bit. And so we started to run attribution surveys and just back to those same three questions, how did you hear about us?

Where did you come from and how long have you known about us? And this founder, the way they sell a lot of their clothing is she is wildly, wildly interactive in her stories. So she'll jump in her stories and she will try clothes on and she'll say, Hey, I am this tall. I weigh this much, this is how my body fits in it. And people just love it because they're like, oh, cool, I can see that. I can visualize it. I'm the same size, or I'm a little bit bigger, I'm a little bit smaller, so I'm going to need a small versus a medium or what have you. And so she just tries on every new piece of clothing that comes in. So if you go look at their stories, they've got a hundred stories, not a hundred stories, 25 stories a day, and they were convinced like, Hey, we're the ones who are selling Google Analytics attribution.

It's all telling us people are coming from our Instagram referrals. That's where everything's coming from. And so we said, let's just run an attribution test. Let's see what's going on here. Come to find out that 75% of the people who said they first heard that brand, that women's clothing boutique was through Facebook ads, Facebook and Instagram ads. So it had nothing to do with her stories, nothing, right? It was the ad first and then how they got to the website today. The top two reasons was from her stories or they just remembered her. They had remembered it. So we came back and said, Hey, the insights here, the actionable insights here for you are, I know once again, this goes back to what was happening over at font design, this word of mouth thing. It's like, Hey, I know that it looks like the people who are buying are people who are coming just from you guys organically, but they first started following you and heard about you through your ads.

Why don't you try to double your ad spend and see what happens? They doubled their ad spend for three months and their business has five XD since then, and they're scaling and growing and opening up new locations all because it was just like, oh my goodness, we've got the right L t V for this and let's just test it out and see what happens. And sure enough, they're absolutely crushing it, their m e r, so their marketing efficient rate, efficiency rate didn't increase, didn't decrease. It stayed the same, but they five x their monthly revenue because of just putting the money where they need to

Brett:

Put it. It's amazing. It's amazing. And it kind of goes back to that first touch, last touch type of argument. And yes, we've got tools that can calculate that, and I like attribution tools. There's several. I like triple oil, north Beam, there's several that are good, but they're not perfect. And so getting these questions answered is huge where we thought that it was all our stories and organic, but really it was ads. We had something kind of similar with one of our brands or jewelry brand, and we were doing just a small YouTube test. Of course we were running all their Google and that was going very, very well. But we wanted to test YouTube. They wanted to test YouTube, ran it for a little while, and they were like, I don't know. I mean the numbers and the different platforms, they look okay and this's one thing we've seen with YouTube a lot under attributed in platform almost always, it's like, well, we're going to ask.

We're going to ask. Actually, they didn't even think about this. They were just like, well, we don't know if we're going to keep going. And then they came back to us the next week and they said, Hey, wait a minute. We started doing post-purchase surveys and we started looking one out of five people this last week mentioned YouTube, and they're like, oh, let's jack up the spend here. So it's one of those things where maybe it doesn't show up in the attribution modeling, but you ask people and then you see it. And I'm curious too, I got asked this question, remember I bought some apparel online. It was a brand that I really like, and I saw this question of how long have you known about us? And I stopped to think about it. I was like, you know what? I think I first heard about this brand seven, eight months ago, and I just hadn't done anything. I saw it, thought it was cool, didn't need it, kind of moved on whatever. But the ads, I kind of saw the ads for a little while. They went away and then they came back. Any surprise learnings you're seeing there? I know with Fawn, you found the buying cycle was short 30 days, but any examples where you've learned the opposite, where there's a significant number of people that heard about our brand months ago and they're just now purchasing?

Trevor:

Yeah, yeah. There was a golf bag brand that we worked with or that uses bestie, and they were really, really shocked by their results. They found that 60% of their audience didn't hear about or didn't purchase until after a year. So they were in this buyer's journey for a year. And so one of the things for them, if you're a golfer, golfing is a seasonal sport. In some states it's not. Obviously in the Californias and the Arizonas and states like Florida, you can golf year round and plenty of other states, but buying season, there's a difference between golfing season and buying season. And so what a lot of these golf brands will do is they'll shut their ads down or they'll turn spend down dramatically in the off months. And that's what this brand would do is they would turn their spend down dramatically, but it come to find out they need to be advertising in October so that they are going to have a really good February, march, april, may when people really, really start to buy.

And so that was really shocking for them. You tend to see that a little bit more though anytime I've recognized anytime something's above $200, you do tend to see the buyer's journey extended a little bit more. That becomes less of an impulse buy. And so you start to get more responses like oh three to six to 12 months before I heard about you before I actually purchase. So yeah, we see it all the time. We see it short and long. I mean, the Fawn Design one was interesting because that was a $200 diaper bag too, but it was under 30 days. But I also think a diaper bag can be very problem solution. So people definitely can buy those

Brett:

Problem solution. There's an easy justification for the diaper bag. I'm going to look like a good mom, I'm going to feel like a good mom. I'm going to be able to execute a good mom with golf equipment. And some of those other things like maybe I got to justify this with my spouse, or maybe I got to sneak in the purchase or do I really need it? So maybe I'll ask for it for Christmas. All kinds of things like that can kind of come into play so good. And I think this just underscores the more we know about our customers, the more we're going to shift. I would argue for the golf client, if I knew that my 60% of people were waiting more than a year, I may look at, okay, I don't have enough urgency. Maybe that's unnaturally long. Maybe I need to up my urgency or how can I get someone on the list?

How can I get them to purchase a little bit quicker? But I think part of that is it's just going to be a longer sales cycle. It's going to be longer than diaper bags or something else. And so then I need to work within that. And yes, I need to maybe now advertise more in October and do some of the off months, but if I know that I'm going to shift my behavior. Let's talk about, and I love the questions you mentioned so far, what else would you say are kind of top questions to ask? And are those the three you start with and then you go somewhere else? And then when and where should you be asking these? Yeah,

Trevor:

Super good question. So a couple different answers to those, right? So it's like attribution stuff is always great to just be getting a better handle on things. I think a lot of people rag on attribution with post-purchase surveys because they say, oh, how does a customer remember? But at the end of the day, sometimes it doesn't matter if the customer's wrong about what they remember because at the end of the day, it's what they remember what, so they

Brett:

Remember that you're going to see patterns as well. If it's true, if you start seeing patterns emerge with a lot of customers, you can bank on it being true or true enough to take action

Trevor:

A hundred percent. Eventually things start to you get enough data and you're like, okay, hey, are all these people wrong? So attribution is always a really good one. Those are the three questions I love the most. I don't think that those three questions are good questions to ask alone. So if you're just asking, how did you hear about us? That's tough because it doesn't tell the full story. If you're just asking what brought you to the website today? If you're just asking how long have you known? It just doesn't tell the full story. So I like those three questions in that story. Those

Brett:

Three pair well together like fine wine and cheese, you got to have 'em together.

Trevor:

Absolutely. Absolutely. Some other really good questions, I talked about motivation. Motivation question is by far one of my favorites because that gives you your value props. You think that your value props, your unique selling propositions are X, y, Z, but your customers are telling you exactly why I thought that somebody was buying because, but they're actually buying because they want to help their kids' confidence. I never thought about that, so let me change. And that nowadays, you probably know this, especially on the YouTube side of things, we know this from meta and TikTok, audience segmentation, that kind of stuff, placements that stuff. No more silver bullets when it comes to media buying like that anymore. The silver bullets are how you create your content and how you message it. And so the motivation question is so pivotal because then you bring that to your creative team or to your social media team or to your media buyers or whatever, and you're now telling 'em, this is why people buy.

Brett:

And you can potentially maybe shift the audience you're building just a little bit on Google. You've got the ability to shift based on keywords and things like that. But yeah, ultimately you're shifting the angle in the story and think about how big of a difference this is. What if my ad was 30 seconds and 20 of it was about saving the environment? And then I just mentioned something about my kids' confidence. That's very different than saying, Hey, kids struggle when they wet the bed and when we've seen these studies that do this, but man, if you can increase that, I'm just totally making this up as I go, but you lean into confidence and then you say, and what if you could cut the time training from an average of three months to just two weeks? And you know what? This is also, you're saving the environment. You're going to save money. Those become cherries on top or the additional benefits. Everybody wants that. Nobody wants to destroy the environment, nobody wants to spend more, but those just weren't the primary drivers. So focus on what's primary and then mention those other things that really kind of push someone over the edge. And that is a big, big difference That can be a total game changer for your ad campaign. So absolutely love that.

Trevor:

Some other questions that kind of tie into motivation is like how do you plan to use the product? So whatcha are going to use this product for what problems are you trying to solve? Why did you pick us over a competitor? What almost stopped you from purchasing today? That's a really, really good one, dude.

Brett:

I love that one. Any insights on that? Any insights that have come from that question? What almost prevented you from buying?

Trevor:

Yeah, absolutely. You get a lot of people who taught price compared to lack of review. So I've recognized that the people who, because you can do, at least with bestie, you can do follow-up questions. So if somebody says, Hey, it was a price thing, you can ask about the reviews or the testimonials that they saw. Did you see any reviews, testimonials or do you have any social proof? And so I think that ties a lot into it. You get some people who say your website was just really, it was really challenging to get through to get to the product page. That was really challenging. You get some people who just will flat out say, we've seen responses such as the competitor I was looking at was out of stock. And so I came to you. I mean, you get all sorts of stuff. You get all sorts stuff.

Brett:

You're my second choice.

Trevor:

You're our second choice. But here I am,

Brett:

You lucked out. But man, talk about valuable insights. So it shows how you stack up and man, what insight would that be where you're like, yeah, you know what? I almost didn't buy because your website's so stinging hard to navigate. But I was really desperate, so I bought it, right? So that's like, oh no, my website's great. It's converting. No, you're actually, they won it so bad. They're fighting through your website. So yeah, love that question. By the way, before I forget, and this just a quick side note, we'll get back to this topic. You mentioned Utah a minute ago. I'm in Missouri. We're Midwest guys. Our golfing season is not the same as our friends in California and Florida and Arizona. Why is Utah such like this D two C hotbed? I remember several years ago we had a client in Ogden, Utah, so flew into Salt Lake, went just, I think, is it north? Is it north of Salt Lake? Yep.

Trevor:

Ogden's North.

Brett:

Yeah. And maybe it was Logan, actually Logan. Anyway, but this guy was like, dude, you got to move out here. I'm like, well, I'm pretty plugged in Missouri. I'm not moving. But he's like, no, no, no, no. The scene here is amazing, like tech D two C, it's happening. So what are some of you posted on LinkedIn recently? Some of the brands, the amazing brands that are in Utah. Can you run through some of those by memory and what's with Utah? Why is it such a hotbed of D two C and tech growth?

Trevor:

There's so many responses that I've heard from this down to, from religion to all sorts of things. But yeah, I mean there's a lot of really cool D two C back to businesses from the Tech D two C side of things, or also the merchant side of things. So you've got Ekk who's here, that's one of the fastest growing footwear brands in the world right now. D two C footwear brands. You've got brands like Kodiak Cakes that started here. You've got brands like Clean, simple Eats, just ingredients. Those are in the C P G space. You've got Mixers, which is a big female founded brand that's absolutely crushing it right now here in Utah. You've got Gab Wireless. I'm not sure if you've heard of Gab Wireless, but that's this massive brand right now where it's phones for kids. So it's giving them the smartphone experience without the dangers of smartphones. Dude,

Brett:

Love that.

Trevor:

Which you'll have to look it up. They're one of the most fantastic brands right now as somebody with kids. I love it. Traeger, you've heard of Traeger. Traeger started out

Brett:

Here. I totally heard of Traeger. Yeah. Got lots of friends

Trevor:

That Traeger. Yep. My lifetime value at Traeger is stupid, so that's great for me.

Brett:

V i p at Trager.

Trevor:

Yeah, that's right. Also

Brett:

Shout out, I saw on your list thread wallets. Yep, threads. Shout out to Colby Bauer. He was on the podcast. Oh,

Trevor:

Amazing.

Brett:

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Dude's awesome. It's been a hot minute. It's may have been like three years ago. May have been pre,

Trevor:

Yeah, Kolby and Mackenzie are great. You were about to say Skull Candy, that's another brand that came out of Utah that's still here in Utah. Kick in Alive and well, I mean list goes on and on some e-commerce brands, you've got pattern pattern's absolutely massive. You've got

Brett:

Pillow Cube.

Trevor:

Oh yeah, pillow Cube's a big one. You've got creatively, you've got the Harmons Brothers came out of here. I think you've got the list is Big Corso, which is route shipping insurance. Those guys came out of Utah. So it's massive. So reasoning why, I don't know. You do have, Utah is just in general a very entrepreneurial minded place.

Brett:

That's what I've noticed.

Trevor:

Yeah. I have some theories I have behind it is you get a lot of young men who go on what's called moron missions. So like L D SS missions two

Brett:

Year Mission, man, it's like primetime preparation for being an entrepreneur.

Trevor:

Yeah, I mean, one of the biggest, I am one of those people who did that, who did a two year mission. And one of the biggest things you learn as a missionary is number one, hard work. You are working your butt off. It's nonstop. You're up at 6:00 AM you're in bed by 10 30 and you're on a very rigid schedule. And it's during these years of your life that are really impressionable, right? 19 to 21 years old. And then not only that, but you are getting rejected literally 24 7. And if you're an entrepreneur, like rejection is, you just got to be used to rejection. You got people who are telling you left and that this is not going to work. You got your parents, especially if you got older school parents who are maybe more in the baby boomer side who don't understand entrepreneurship, who are just go get the nine to five. So you get a lot of rejection and so you're not afraid. You're not afraid of failure. And so I think personally that that's a huge, huge reason is I

Brett:

Think it is too. I think it's huge because that learning to deal with rejection, and I got my start in college was selling radio, trying to put myself through college. I got married young and I dealt with a lot of rejection and I realized this isn't that bad. I didn't die. I got told no, but I didn't die. This is no big deal. I'm just going to keep cranking. And what's interesting, and we're people of faith, I've got lots of friends who are Mormons, but not Mormon myself, but my son is selling solar systems door to door. And it's another, all the great companies are based out of Utah and it makes sense. And so he's leading a team. He's in Connecticut right now leading a team, but most of his buddies there are went on warm a missions and stuff. And I would agree, man, one of the best ways to train as an entrepreneur or salesperson is going through that experience. So

Trevor:

There's also a couple colleges here as well that really pride themselves in entrepreneurship as well. So it's not just the religion side of things, but there are some colleges that are very, very into it. You also get on the other side of things this kind of times, Utah is a very family friendly culture. And so traditional motherhood, fatherhood roles are very big. And you also get a lot of big female founders here have been moms who are thinking about other things that they can do. So you get a lot of moms out here who've started businesses that have blown up and just succeeded just out of solving a problem for other moms.

Brett:

Don't Sleep on Utah, man, Utah, it's a rising star in the D two C place. Keep your eye on it, think about how you can partner there. And so really, really good stuff. Love this topic so much. And my head is spinning and now I'm thinking of questions and advice. I got to give you clients so we can really maximize what we're doing here. But love that you talked about, what problem are you solving? Why'd you choose us over competitors? You, and I know I'm putting you on the spot here, but can you think of any insights or aha moments from those questions?

Trevor:

Yeah, I can think of one. So there was a men's bag company who did you choose us over? Your competitors? And a massive, massive response that we got. So one of this brand that was using bestie, they started to just go really, really deep into the entertainment or the, there's a name. It's combining entertainment and education at the same time. Yeah,

Brett:

Edutainment.

Trevor:

Edutainment, right Space. It's something that was just kind of like bags kind of lame ish. And they went really, really hard on TikTok and started to get a big TikTok following from an organic perspective. And so these people found that, hey, one of the number one reasons people are picking us over competitors, bigger competitors that have a big name in the space is because they're following us on TikTok and they love what we're doing and the questions we're answering and how they, we've turned such a mundane thing into something a lot more fun and turn something mundane to fun and interesting. And so that was a huge reason why they're picking them over a competitor.

Brett:

Yeah, it's so great. And it's just a reminder that yes, we do want good features and we want to save money or pay a fair price or whatever, but we also want to be delighted and we want something to kind of make our day better. And so sometimes just the content you create, the message you present is enough for someone to say, Hey, all things being equal here as far as features and stuff, I like your personality better. I get more enjoyment from working with your brand than with another. And I'm going to go with you one of my favorite stories, tushy, the Bidet attachment company. So I had Mickey Agrawal on the podcast a couple of years ago, and so she talked about, Hey, we want to communicate just like we're friends with people and we want the whole journey to be fun and entertaining and we want people to talk about it.

And so we saved this. We bought one for the office because people requested it, but there's this little guide that's this number two shall pass, and it's just like a series of puns, like bathroom puns. So it's like part guide, but then part just humor. And that thing has been passed around, hopefully didn't make trips to the bathroom and then get passed around. I think it's all been contained in the office, but people talk about it, it's hilarious. It's so much better than just a user manual. And so adding personality in what you're doing, it can allow you to charge a premium and really endear customers to you. So really good stuff. Really good stuff. Awesome, man. Well, hey, any recent episodes of the pod that you want to highlight that people should go back and listen to? I mean, I know we should just binge listen to all of it, but can you think of

Trevor:

Any? Yeah, should we just have an episode where we just Yeah, I'm trying to think of maybe some of my favorite episodes. Kik, we had the VP of marketing over at Kik on, he was awesome to listen to. Really, really cool to see what's going on with that. Because what happened is the story of Kik is such, they kind of switched their entire persona buyer of who was originally buying the shoe to who's now buying it now and how they've scaled to a nine figure business. That's a really, really cool episode. I think we just did an episode where just my co-host and I, we just did it. We didn't have a guest on, it was our actually most recent one. And it was actually one of my favorites where we just talked about what content is converting right now, what content is working to drive sales, why is it working? Why is certain content not working anymore? What are some inspirational brands who are doing it cool, who are some inspirational, we dove into directors and tied certain directors and how they create movies and why they're so good and some of those attributes and how you can pull that from your business. So that was a great episode.

Brett:

Yeah, that's fantastic. So just as a teaser for that episode, what is some content that is converting now versus that isnt? So

Trevor:

One of the things we talk a lot about is you've got this, there's a lot of trends out there that merchants follow. Oh, I'm seeing a lot of people do use U G C right now, so I'm going to create U G C. I see a lot of people creating listicle ads such as for the five reasons why I bought Tushy or whatever. And so I think that there is, there's kind of this two-tone approach that you need to go about. The brands should go about things. One is I think that following trends can be great. Try to be early in some of those trends because you'll see that U G C is still super important, but it is not doing what it used to do and people are starting to see through a lot of it. So you got to go a little bit deeper,

Brett:

Has to be good. U G C, it used to be just run U G C, you win. Now it's got to be this U G C has to serve a purpose. It's got to be authentic, it's got to be compelling, it's got to be good.

Trevor:

Yeah, exactly right, exactly. So how do you get to trends as quick as possible? So totally good with doing that kind of stuff. I don't think U G C ever goes anywhere. What's now happening a little bit more. What we're seeing with U G C is U G C tends to do a lot better towards the bottom of the funnel. So it's like, hey, I don't really care what somebody thinks about a product that I don't know about yet. So tell me about the product first. Then I want to see a few people who look like they really love the product, work with it. But the other thing that's working really good is just storytelling ads. It kind of goes against the grain where nowadays it's like, Hey, that first five seconds is so important. So first five seconds is so important, which is totally true, but most people are thinking those first five seconds is five reasons why you should, or this is why you shouldn't do X, or this is how I made more money here, or this is why my butt is getting cleaner, or you're getting these really impactful hooks.

But I even think that with how saturated TikTok is and what's happening with Instagram right now, you're getting so many people who are, that's becoming noise. Those hooks are becoming noise. I'm not saying that they don't work still and they can't, but when you just jump into the narrative of a problem, oh, the other day I was doing X, Y, z. That goes against the hook, like your general hook standards. But people are starting to key in on storytelling a lot more. And then if you can get to the problem really, really quickly and you really follow a good storytelling framework, which is just jumping right into it, what is the problem, what is the solution? And you're kind of following it, that content's working really, really

Brett:

Good. Yeah, I love this. And really I think this comes down to understanding why is something working. So if U G C is working or if listicles are working, why it's not, just because there's something magic in that it's not just totally formulaic, there's something behind it. So understanding the psychology and the persuasion behind it and the attention grabbing factors, you got to understand that. And then I think you can kind of riff on things. And I agree with you, I think U G C will never die, but you can't just wing it. You got to be good at U G C. And I think that's really key. So dude, this has been fantastic. Thoroughly enjoyed this episode. And so you got to go check out the podcast and it is the Unstoppable Marketer. Did I get that right? Yep. Nailed it. Unstoppable Marketer and then bestie app. So how can people check out bestie? Give us the quick pitch. I think people are now sold on your approach to asking questions, but why should I choose bestie and how can I learn more? Yeah,

Trevor:

Yeah. So bestie app.co is where you can go. We offer free trial right now, so go check it out. We're more than happy to jump on a call with anybody and help you set some stuff up. We're kind of approaching things a little bit different right now. There's plenty of post-purchase survey tools that you can look at, but one of the things that we're most interested in is how can we deliver actionable insights that the user doesn't have to really do anything to figure out marketers nowadays we have, each one of us has a thousand tools. We're looking at every single day. We're being pulled in a hundred different directions. And so the question is, how can we deliver those insights to you? So you have actionable ways to just get up, you see what's going on with your surveys, what's happening with your customers, and you got the actual tips to go and check it out. And so go check it out. We've got some really cool things happening right now, some cool partnerships and some cool feature drops that are going to happen in the next couple of weeks. So go there, or if you want to just follow me on social media, all my handles are at the Trevor Crump and I talk about bestie all the time as well. So that

Brett:

Is awesome. So check it out, bestie app.co. You just got to do it. Get started. Do the free trial because when you know more about your customers, you know what to do differently and you know how to maximize things. Trevor Crump, ladies and gentlemen, Trevor, that was a ton of fun, man. You crushed it. We'll have to do this again sometime.

Trevor:

Absolutely. Now I got to have you on online, so we will swap it. Yeah,

Brett:

Absolutely. Man. I thought you'd never ask. I was just sitting over here like Unstoppable marketer, all these cool guests. I'm like, I've never been a guest.

Trevor:

We'll get You seem unstoppable. You seem unstoppable. So we'll get you

Brett:

There. Awesome. Thanks dude. Tons of fun and I look forward to it.

Trevor:

I appreciate you having me on.

Brett:

Awesome. And thank you for tuning in. We could not do this show without you, and hey, we'd love your feedback. What would you like to hear more of? What other topics should we dive into on this podcast? Also, connect with me on the socials, getting pretty active on LinkedIn, posting almost daily with some good stuff, good clips, good insights. So reach out to me there. Love to keep the conversation going there. And with that, until next time, thank you for listening.

‍

Gracey Ryback, an A-List Amazon Influencer, began her journey on TikTok by talking about products she loved. Soon after, she started hosting Amazon Lives. To date, she has driven seven figures in new sales for various products on Amazon. 

I first met Gracey when we both spoke at SellerCon in Austin earlier this summer. Her presentation was amazing, and I immediately knew I had to get her on the show.

If you’re like most of the brands I know, then you’ve likely never tried Amazon Lives, or if you did, you did it as a brand and got little to no traction. 

The good news is that your competition likely isn’t using Amazon Lives or Amazon Influencers either... so you have a potential edge.

Here’s what Gracey and I discuss:

• Advantages of Amazon Live with an A-List Influencer vs. Live as a brand.
• How to show up on the Amazon home page with your Amazon Live.
• How to find Amazon Influencers to work with that fit your brand.
• TikTok Shop - how it works, how to leverage for growth on and off Amazon.
• How to fully leverage influencer content.
• What is the influencer marketing mindset, and why is it critical for success in influencer marketing?
• How creative control may be killing your results with influencer marketing.

Transcript

Gracey:

The more times you show up on an Amazon Live over time, the better results you're going to get. It's consistent and slow and just show up more often because every single time you go live, you're reaching more people. So don't expect a one-off huge spike success. That's not really how the platform works for Amazon Live more like small and steady and long-term.

Brett:

Well, hello and welcome to another edition of the E-Commerce Evolution podcast. I'm your host, Brett Curry, CEO of OMG Commerce. And today we're talking about a topic we've never dove into on this podcast before. We're talking about Amazon influencers, Amazon Live, Amazon affiliate TikTok shop, and it's going to be amazing and inspiring, and you'll for sure get your money's worth from this podcast. Now I met today's guest when we were both speaking at Seller Con in Austin, Texas packed room, Amazon Sellers on the edge of their seat, ready to learn some tips and strategies for growing their business. And there was one speaker, one speaker when she wrapped up, people were chanting her name. They were like Gracey Gray c chanting for Encore. They were so excited about this content. I may be embellishing a little bit, but a lot of that is true. And so we connected in the green room. I spoke two, no one was chanting my name, but that's okay. We both met in the green room and decided, hey, we got to do a podcast together. So with that, Gracey Ryback is my guest. Gracey, what's up? How's it going? And welcome to the show. Hi

Gracey:

Brett. Thank you for having me. I'm excited to be here and get into a topic that you've never talked about before. I

Brett:

Know it's a brand new topic, which we talk about Amazon all the time. And for listeners that listen frequently, which I hope is all of you, you know that I'm passionate about building a brand on Amazon, not just selling stuff, not just being a good seller. That's fine if that's where you are, but when you can build a brand on Amazon, that's when the real power's there. That's when you got something you can sell later, something that's maximized in value, something you can start launching new products and benefit there too. And so I think what you do, Gracey, is perfect for those that are ready to build a brand on Amazon. And so as a quick backstory, just 60, 90 seconds, how did you become an Amazon influencer and how did you become an expert in this space?

Gracey:

Yeah, so let's flash back to 2020 when the world was going through what the world was going through. And I was actually just trying to create content on TikTok just as a passion project. It was just for fun. And at the time my mindset was like, I'll never make a penny from social media. I'm not that kind of person. I'm no influencer. I just want to help people save money on Amazon. And that was my intention behind my content. So I just started creating TikTok videos without expectation and not knowing what would happen. My contents started creating traction and I started growing in followers. Throughout that process, I started realizing that there was something happening on the other side, the A K V Amazon brand side for sellers that I didn't know about stuff was selling. So in the process, I met some Amazon sellers who introduced me into this world of what it's like selling on Amazon, what they're looking for to make a successful brand. And in turn, I realized what I do is very highly connected to them. So it only made sense that I started learning more about both sides of the industry. So that's kind of how we got into it. And throughout the past three years that I've been doing this, I've also expanded to seven different platforms. I do Amazon Live as well, and I live and breathe this. So,

Brett:

And driving multiple seven figures in sales as a power influencer, I would call you. And what's so cool, and the way you described that, it made me think of something that's I think a really important business principle. So you started not with the goal to make money, although that's great, that's where all entrepreneurs, but you started with the goal to how can I be helpful? How can I help people save money on Amazon? Lemme just create content with that as the goal. And then it took off. And one of my favorite stories comes from Jim Collins. I'm a huge Jim Collins fan, so good to great, great by choice must reads for anybody in business. But he's a big Peter Drucker fan, as am I one of the greatest management thinkers of all time. And Jim Collins tells a story about when he was a younger teacher at Stanford, he met Peter Drucker and Jim was like, how can I assure that I'm going to be successful?

And Peter Drucker said, you're asking the wrong question you shouldn't desire. You shouldn't try to be successful, try to be useful. If you're useful, you'll be successful. I just love that. I think that's so good. That's what we should do as brands, as managers, as leaders, as influencers, whatever. How can I be useful if I'm useful to other people that I'm going to be successful? And that's what you have done. So talk to us a little bit about Amazon lives, and I know we've all seen it. You log into Amazon on the homepage, you see it and it's on mobile and stuff like that. But what's the power there? What are some of the results you've seen just set the stage for somebody who maybe doesn't know much about Amazon Lives?

Gracey:

Sure. So Amazon lives started, I want to say right before 2020. And it was their take on trying to bring more personality to the products and trying to do more product demos, but on Amazon's platform. And so they have a bunch of creators and there's different tiers of creators that we can talk about, but basically you can talk about up to 40 products per stream. You can talk about anything that sells on Amazon. There's two types of streams, there's a regular stream and then there's a deal stream. And the viewership between these two streams can differ a lot. But the main point of it is basically to highlight products that shoppers may or may not be looking for on Amazon, and then bring somebody who is a creator, an influencer, potentially an expert on that product or a loving user of that product and just have somebody able to talk about it, show it, demo it, and be able to answer questions if buyers and customers have them.

So it's a really fun platform. I do streams about three times a week and I've highlighted countless products in all different niches and areas. And I think the real value from them is getting those traffic clicks to your product and of course the sales that come along with it, but also having somebody put personality behind your product and be like, this is how I use it, this is what I use it for, this is what I like about it. Here's all the questions I can answer about it, and here's my personal experience. And you don't get that from a product page or a listing.

Brett:

Yeah, I love it. I mean, it's really all about product discovery, isn't it? Because one shortcoming of Amazon, and I love Amazon, it's the largest retailer online by far. But still the vast majority of products that are discovered on Amazon are discovered through search, meaning someone has to be actively shopping for your product or your category anyway. And I really think that's one of the big reasons why Amazon created Amazon Live. They want it to be the Q vvc or little infomercials where, hey, maybe I'm bored and maybe I just want to look at stuff and see what's available. And now I'm going to be introduced to a product that I didn't even know I needed, but now I can't live without it and we all love to buy stuff. And that became very true, even more true during the pandemic. Retail therapy is a real thing. It's a real thing every day, but especially then where we're like, man, I got nothing else to do. I'm going to buy something that feels good. I get some endorphins or some dopamine release if I buy something. Yeah,

Gracey:

I do that too. Sometimes I'm on board. I'm like, well, lemme browse Amazon as my social media and try to find something I maybe need or probably don't

Brett:

At all. So let's do something really quickly, Gracey, this will be kind of fun. Let's do confession time. I'll confess something as well. When you're bored, what is a category? What is a shopping category you go to frequently where you're like, maybe I'll just kind of look at this category and see what I can find?

Gracey:

Not to be stereotypical, but it's always fashion and beauty for me. I always find some really cool beauty product that I maybe want to review or just want to try. And then fashion is also fun because there's a world of Amazon fashion that is kind of underbelly and there's a lot of good stuff there. And a lot of times people are like, where'd you get that? Where'd you wear that from? And I'm like, Amazon. And they're always shaken by that. They're always,

Brett:

Yeah, yeah, really Amazon, Amazon's like a boys for cheap stuff or whatever, which wasn't true, but that's a perception. So my confession, and I don't know how masculine this sounds, but I'm just going to say it anyway, it's not beauty. It's not beauty, but I like shopping for shoes, man. I just got some new Adidas. If I was a little more flexible, I could kick 'em up here and you can see. But it also also shirts. This is a relatively new shirt, so on occasion if I'm bored, I will buy a new shirt or I'll buy a new pair of shoes and I don't feel overly guilty about that. So

Gracey:

I love it. My last thing has been watches. I've been really into watches recently, so maybe you can

Brett:

Relate. So I like watches, but I love my Apple watch, so I'm like, I don't know that I would ever do anything different. So I watches are more of a fashion accessory I know for a lot of people. For me it's kind of functional, but I get that. I can see my dad was a huge watch guy, so he was always shopping for watches. But yeah, that's good. I like that. I like that. So yeah, so this is a way for people to discover our product. So what are you seeing most successful as Amazon lives? Are they most successful when it's someone like you hosting them where the platform inside and out, you're natural, you're like TV host or Q VVC host or whatever, or should a brand host a live themself or is that even possible? What do you recommend there?

Gracey:

So can stream themselves as long as they're brand registered on Amazon, they have the ability to go live and they would show up on their own brand storefront and they basically can either drive their own traffic if they have that external traffic or basically the only people that would see their streams are the people that are already shopping on their page listing storefront. There is pros and cons to this brands. It really depends on how much your brand has created a presence on Amazon already on your storefront, how many followers your storefront has, and basically that's going to be the audience that you're going to watch if you are streaming as a brand. The good thing is that the audience that you have is probably much more targeted and much more vertical than an influencer doing an Amazon live stream, which could be anybody and everybody watching their own audience or even Amazon's onsite audience. So the viewership numbers may be fully different, but you might get higher revenue if you are reaching a very vertical audience.

Brett:

And just to clarify Grace, just to make sure, this is new to me too, so I just want to make sure I'm following. So if I'm going live on Amazon as a brand, then that live is only visible if someone is on my storefront or on one of my product detail pages. Is that correct? And it's only visible while I'm live, or can you replay it later or how does that

Gracey:

Work? No, I'm less familiar with the brand side of things than I am with the creator side of things. I want to say that live streams do archive after a certain amount of time, and I do believe that they're only really highlighted while they're actually live similar to influencer streams. And the lifespan I would say is like 24 hours, 48 hours after I stream, and then it kind of goes away and makes room for the new live stuff. But influencer live streams are a bit different because in that sense, and I also want to mention time commitment as a brand, unless you want to hire a creator to do the livestream on your behalf for your brand, it may or may not be worth investing all that time into As a brand owner, if it's like you and a small team and you have much better things to do, that is very, very important to note.

But if you are working with a creator or an Amazon Live influencer, then obviously you have two A-list placements and a-list is the top tier of Amazon Live creator. And those streams have potential placement on either the Amazon deal page, daily deals page, which is a great placement, or the amazon.com homepage. If you kind of scroll to the middle of the amazon.com homepage, you can usually see a little live stream with the carousel of products in the middle. And so these streams are going to get a lot more viewership than a brand stream would just because of the placement. But the caveat here is that anybody and everybody can see this stream, so it may not be somebody interested in the products. So that is the difference,

Brett:

But it really makes sense. You made a great point. So if my brand isn't huge on Amazon and myself and my team, we've got to decide where do we invest our efforts? And so do I invest a little more time in running Facebook ads or Google ads or Amazon ads, or do I go live and if I don't have a huge following, then hardly anybody's going to see my live. And so it makes a lot of sense, I think in most cases for someone to partner with an influencer like yourself or somebody else and just say like, Hey, I want you to run this. It's going to have a much broader reach, and you'll probably find quality in the quantity, the larger the audience, the more likely you're going to find some people that are likely to buy. And so that makes a lot of sense. How is that structured? If I'm a brand and I'm selling, give me a product that

Gracey:

You like a mirror,

Brett:

A mirror, I'm selling mirrors and I am looking for an influencer. How am I doing that? Is there an influencer marketplace? Am I going to be paying an influencer like a commission of every deal that's closed? Is that trackable? Am I just paying a flat fee? What does that look like typically?

Gracey:

That is great question. So there are a couple ways to find Amazon influencers, and the way that I suggest is if you're going to invest in Amazon Live, the thing that's going to get you the most R O I possible is to work with an A-list Amazon influencer that frequently shows up on the Amazon deal page or the Amazon homepage. If you're doing a deal stream on the deals page, every product in the carousel has to fall under three types of deals, three and a half types of deals, a lightning deal, a deal of the day, a seven day deal, or a red limited time bar deal. So those four types of deals are eligible for a deal stream.

Brett:

So one more time, that was lightning deal deal today, the red bar, what was the other one? Seven

Gracey:

Day deal.

Brett:

Seven day deal.

Gracey:

Got it. And then homepage placement. It can be anything and everything doesn't necessarily have to be on deal.

Brett:

So how did somebody become an Alister? So I know you're an Alister, but how do you become an A-list influencer?

Gracey:

So everyone, part of the Amazon influencer program is eligible to start live streaming. You have to download a little app and then once everybody starts out as a rising star. So once you stream a certain amount of minutes and drive a certain amount of revenue, you can apply for insider level, which is mid-tier level, insider level. Once you get I think 2000 followers on your storefront, on your Amazon storefront and drive a certain amount of revenue, then you can apply for a-list. Now a-list is a bit more challenging because Amazon has to manually hand vet every A-list or they approve because obviously they want good quality on those highly viewed placements. And that's basically how you do it. You just stream a certain amount, drive a certain amount of revenue, and then you can apply and just make sure you have a good quality live stream where you're entertaining and you know what you're talking about. And another thing that's really important to Amazon is that us creators, we have the product in hand or at least experience with the products that we talk about so that we're not just reading off a page or talking willy-nilly about something we don't know about.

Brett:

Yeah, I love it. I've looked at just a couple of Amazon lives, not very many, and the few I looked at were kind of painfully boring. This was like the bad Q V C host or someone who's not really comfortable on camera. And so you got to get good. I am curious though, now I slip into podcast voice when I'm on the podcast. There's been a few times when I've gone back downstairs to the office and I'm talking to my assistant or something and you're like, who are you? Hey, you are still in podcast mode. I'm like, oh, sorry. Yeah. So do you get into Amazon live mode? And maybe you're there now because we're recording, but if you're not, can you give us a flavor of Gracey pitching a mirror on Amazon Live? What would that look like?

Gracey:

That is so funny you say that because whenever I'm on Amazon Live, it's just me. I don't have a co-host. It's me for at least one and a half to three hours at once.

Brett:

Dang, that's a long

Gracey:

Time. And I'm talking about 20 to 25 products normally, and I am just nonstop for two hours at a time. And when I'm with my Amazon friends in person, they're like, dang, Gracey, I watched your stream and you talk a lot, but in person you don't talk that much. I'm like

Brett:

Part of the game. That's how it's successful. Now I'm curious, are you, after a live, are you wiped? Are you energized? I

Gracey:

Am hyped up on energy. I usually stream very late at night because that just fits better with my schedule. I have just my schedule, my regulars, they come in late at night, and so I try to sleep at night, but it's normally like two or 3:00 AM

Brett:

I recommend it. Yeah,

Gracey:

Wired up and I can't fall asleep well after a stream.

Brett:

So funny. Yeah, I'm the same. Don't, we're not recording at night. I don't podcast at night, but I'm totally fired up after a day of podcast recording. I'm tired too sometimes if it's like three or four, but for the most part I'm like, yeah, a little bit, but I'm like, I'm feeling good, man. I'm like, this was a good day. This is what I love to do, so that's awesome. Okay, so talk about Amazon affiliate. So Amazon affiliate, how is that related to Amazon Live? I'm assuming the best influencers are also part of the Amazon affiliate program, but walk us through that.

Gracey:

So think of Amazon affiliate as the upper umbrella and think of Amazon Influencer as the STEM of the umbrella. So I guess you can technically apply for the influencer program by itself, but Amazon affiliate has been around since I believe the nineties, and that was Amazon's affiliate link program before social media became what it is today. It was more so websites and articles and blogs across the internet where people could share products and affiliate links. And then once social media became what it is, I think probably closer to 20 20, 20 19, Amazon started gearing the influencer program towards social media. So more of graphics, more of giving influencers Amazon storefronts so they can drive their traffic to Amazon storefronts, which they would get commissioned for any sales they drive off the storefront. And also the opportunity to live stream and also the opportunity to create little shoppable review videos, which we can talk about too. I think that's a really great topic to talk about. But yeah, this whole influencer program is like a STEM off the affiliate program that's more social media focused and gives influencers more opportunities of ways to earn while sharing their products.

Brett:

Nice. So most of the A-list influencers, they've got their own storefront. You've got your own storefront where you can list product. Got it. Okay. Everybody does. Makes sense. Yeah. So what is a shoppable review video? I'm assuming that's a video that has a longer shelf life. Maybe someone puts it on, you put it on your storefront, I assume. Could a brand put that on their storefront as well or on their P D P or something like that? So

Gracey:

This is a topic that I've been talking about for a bit, but I think it's a really crucial one for your topic of brand building and just making sure that your brand has people behind it and personalities behind it. And it's not just a random product. So little review videos, any influencer with a storefront. So any member of the influencer program can upload a little shoppable video, which could be a product review, it could be an unboxing, it could be a testimonial, it could be just like, here's how I use it on a normal day and upload it to their door front. They could tag a specific ASIN on the backend, put a little title on it, put a little thumbnail ally on it, and then that would then be potentially placed on the brand's product listing and it would show up right before the reviews and under the description in the middle section, sometimes it's at the bottom, sometimes it's in the middle, and it just helps shoppers just learn more about the product.

Maybe they want to see it being used, they want to see it in real life, they want to figure out how to assemble it or see how people use it, whatever. And whenever a buyer watches this video, then the creator or influencer, then we get commission for it, kind of like an affiliate link. So it pays off for the creator, it pays off for the brand, and Amazon controls the placement. So not every video places, not every places forever. Sometimes they rotate out, but it's important as a brand to have enough videos in this little line so that it's not empty because if it is empty and you don't have enough videos, they will place your competitors related product videos on your listing.

Brett:

Yeah, yeah, not good for sure. Okay, awesome. So then as you're creating these, so the way most influencers work out, are you just kind of deciding what products you want to talk about and you just do it because an influencer, or do you have to reach out to that brand and talk about the way your deal works or you, and then you don't have to answer necessarily just for you, you can answer for influencers in general, or are people just getting the commission through the affiliate program, or what does that typically look like?

Gracey:

So I mean, a lot of people when they're starting out are just recommended to talk about products they already have around the house, stuff that they use, stuff they have stuff they like, stuff they don't. And then once they kind of exhaust that, then they can reach out to brands, they can basically create those partnerships. And a lot of times because the creators are getting paid by viewership and by any buyers that click on the page, I do know a lot of creators that if it's a high value product, they want the product anyway. They'll do this review video for free. And of course if they want to do a small flat fee payment, they can do that too. But usually it's not because you never really know when it's going to place, when it's not going to place, how long it's going to place for. So if it's a flat fee, it's usually small.

Brett:

Makes sense. So as a brand, and I know you maybe kind of mentioned a few things around this, but I just want to get clarity. If I'm a brand that I want to work with an influencer, how do I find those influencers? I know it's possible that influencers are just going to reach out to me as a brand, but how can I go out and be proactive and find somebody? So

Gracey:

If you are leaning towards Amazon Live influencers, I always say just keep an eye on the homepage placement and the deal page placement throughout the day. You're going to find after a couple of days of looking at it, there's going to be the same people showing up all the time. These are the people that are going to frequent the deal page and the best people to work with to get that placement when you do work with them. There's not tons of people who do this. So that's one way to find Amazon Live influencers. And then there's two ways you can find influencer for other things. You can obviously look at your competitor products, related products to your brand and see what videos are showing up on their little shoppable video section. And then you can reach out to those, find their storefront and have them do a video for you, something like that. Or you can go on social media and there are different keywords and hashtags you can search up on Instagram, TikTok, Facebook, whatever platform you're looking at. It could be Amazon finds, Amazon favorites, Amazon Hall, Amazon pet, Amazon home, whatever. And you'll find thousands of creators that are creating Amazon content if they're creating Amazon content safe to assume they have an Amazon storefront safe to assume they're in this Amazon world that you can work with them.

Brett:

Nice. Very, very cool. And so any case studies that you can mention, you don't have to mention specific brands or whatnot, but what kind of impact can this have, because I know I've heard people that get on Q V C and it sells a bazillion products or thousands of products. I know some people that have tried Amazon Live, again, not really anything out of it. So what does it typically look like or what are some examples you could share?

Gracey:

So based on the results that I have heard of, I would say that Amazon Live is not the kind of platform that's going to sell you out. For example, it's going to get you some clicks onto your listing. It's going to get you some sales as well. And the best strategy for Amazon Live,

Brett:

New reach, right? New discovery with new prospects that aren't actively searching for you. So there's some real benefit there too.

Gracey:

Yes. Yes. And it's more, I guess the more times you show up on an Amazon live over time, the better results you're going to get. It's consistent and slow and just show up more often because every single time you go live, you're reaching more people. So don't expect a one-off huge spike success. That's not really how the platform works for Amazon. Live more small and steady and long-term. If we're talking about TikTok and social media, then results can vary from nothing to everything. You can sell out, go viral, your brand will never be the same overnight, or you could get a couple thousand sales, you get a couple hundred sales, or you could get a small little bit of sales. It really so highly depends on who you work with, how well the video does, so many factors,

Brett:

So many factors, but I think that's a really good way to frame it. You're going to go live on Amazon, you're not going to sell through your whole inventory, but you're going to make some incremental lift in sales. You're going to reach new people. If you can do this consistently, it's going to build more exposure for your brand. And so it's worth doing for sure. You mentioned TikTok. Let's go there for a little bit. I know you do a lot on TikTok. I have a big following there. Talk a little bit about how you utilize TikTok for promotions and then I would love to get into TikTok shop as

Gracey:

Well. So I started out on TikTok. TikTok is still my favorite platform to this day, and my favorite part about it is that every single video that you make, every product that you talk about, it's a new chance to be reaching a new audience and millions of people. And my favorite thing is that you're not held back by your following. So TikTok has two feeds, the for you page feed and then the following feed, and I don't know anybody who stays on their following feed. So all the time people are just finding new creators, new products, discovering new things. It's like an app for discovery. So that's why you could work with a creator with 5,000 followers and go viral with 5 million views. You can also work with a creator with a million followers and get 5,000 views. So the possibilities and the potential is not determined by your following. It is on every other platform.

Brett:

It's really based on the quality of the content. And I don't mean just production quality, but how interesting is this, how much does it catch fire? Which is so cool because then that means I don't have to work with the biggest influencer, I just got to work with the right influencer. Exactly. And then the cool

Gracey:

Stuff could happen. Exactly.

Brett:

Yeah. So how do you use TikTok as an influencer and how does that tie into Amazon Live and Amazon affiliate?

Gracey:

So when I first started on TikTok, I was just linking Amazon products, no affiliate program knowledge at all. Then after that, after I learned more about it and I was like, wait a second, I didn't know that you could monetize this, then I started monetizing it through the Amazon affiliate program. And that actually led into my transition to Amazon Live, which I was invited to join, I believe early 2021. And that is how I got there, start on TikTok, got invited to Amazon Live. But with TikTok, it's really, really cool because TikTok actually wants to get into e-commerce themselves because they saw what a huge success was happening with users driving TikTok traffic to it. Totally. When I first started with Amazon's influencer program, they did not like TikTok traffic. They thought it was the wild, wild west. They did not support it. It was not a platform they talked of.

And to see how widely that's changed and how focused they are on TikTok now, it's just funny. I mean obviously because it worked and it did so much success, but you would think that they would be friends and partner up, but no, so TikTok actually wanted to create their own shopping platform called TikTok Shop, and basically there is a marketplace of products that sellers and brands can join. And then as creators, they're giving us all these incentives. They're giving us a really good commission cut or they're giving us coupons to buy product samples with, or they're giving free samples out to creators who are participating in TikTok shop a lot. Whenever I create a video, I can tag a product. It has a disclosure that says eligible for commission. That's how it's a TikTok shop video. And TikTok is actually boosting those videos right now and giving them more traffic so that it can run this program and get more traffic to it. And in turn, all these brands are doing so well, maybe not all of them, but a lot of brands are doing so well. New customers selling out, just getting their name out there, the brand awareness of it all. It's been a huge success so far.

Brett:

Interesting. So how does TikTok shop work? So again, if I'm a brand, what should I be thinking about? Am I going to have to find an influencer to help me with TikTok shop? Am I just going to get listed? Then influencers can run wild with it. What does that look like?

Gracey:

I would say if you are on Amazon and you have the ability to put your products on a Shopify site, do that and then join TikTok shop because this may not drive back to Amazon and really help your Amazon business, but it is going to create the brand awareness for your brand that they can then find on Amazon and they can also just create new customers. You can get amazing U G C videos that you can then reach out to the content creator and maybe buy the rights to or whitelist from their page. There's so much you could do from this that can also benefit Amazon, but you can find new creators that will just organically find your product in the marketplace, or you can kind of jumpstart it. You could work with a couple creators at first, get the product name out there and then other creators will follow suit. So there's so much to do with it, but there's just a way to join the TikTok shop marketplace. And I don't believe the requirements are too much because they're really looking for new brands and sellers to join.

Brett:

I was just trying to get it going, trying to hit critical mass, and they're very motivated there. Everybody, all the social platforms want to be shoppable and want to get into the e-commerce game to a certain degree. Same with Facebook and Instagram as well. And so to work with TikTok shop, you've got to be connected through Shopify probably primarily, which by the way, you should be doing that anyway. And I think the vast majority listeners already have their own.com, but if you don't exclusively Amazon, this is a great way to launch on Shopify and this is a great way to start getting traffic and just start building that brand off as Amazon start getting some traffic there, some traction. And so makes a ton of sense. But also to your point, often brands that are Amazon first brands, someone may see the live or the TikTok video or whatever, then they view your website and then they go buy on Amazon. Right,

Gracey:

Exactly. And that happens more often than you would think. I mean, people just love buying on Amazon. It's so seamless. So

Brett:

All my stuff is saved. I get fast shipping, I know it's guaranteed. There's just no friction there. So that's why a lot of people like it. Yeah, love it. So what have you seen brag a little bit, what are some of your success stories on TikTok? Are you getting, what's been some of your most successful promotions on TikTok?

Gracey:

So I find that whenever I create content about products that are trending or products that are being talked about a lot throughout the app, because TikTok is a very trend-based app. If one person's talking about something, your entire feed will be this one thing that everyone's jumping in on and everyone's talking about. So I personally just am a huge user of TikTok. I'm on the app hours every day, I'm working, but also scrolling. And I want to say it's for research purposes,

Brett:

Just entertainment, which is at least partially true and probably mostly true.

Gracey:

It's unhealthy. But in that way, I can see what people are talking about, what people are wanting, what the current trends are. And then what I do is, and this is something I do myself, so I literally just share what I do myself. I want the product, but I don't necessarily want to pay a huge price tag for the product. So I will go and find a cheaper alternative on Amazon. I'll find a deal, a promo code, a coupon, a way to find the same product but not break the bank to get it. And I post about the trendy products, and those are the ones that everyone's like, oh, I've been wanting this, but I didn't want to pay $300 for it. Thanks for finding a deal that's like half off now I'm going to get it. So there is a difference between doing deals and just doing fines and reviews because people can discover the product for the fines and review videos, but the price tag might be too much to pull the trigger on that product right away. But when there's a deal attached to it, they're like, okay, great, it's not going to break the bank. But also this is time sensitive. I know that the deal is not going to be forever. It might miss the opportunity. I've been wanting it, it's been my wishlist, now I'm going to get it. And that is what I love doing.

Brett:

That's awesome. So deal cheats, I know that's your Twitter slash x handle, the same handle. What is with that Elon Musk? So much admire there, brilliant guy, changing lots of industries. I don't get it, man. I don't get the X. Twitter got a lot of value in that name Twitter, and we're still tweeting and it's still called Twitter. But anyway,

Gracey:

I was talking to my friend about it and he's like a huge Twitter user. He gets all his social media and news from Twitter, and I was like, whatcha going to say now I'm going to go X about it. Let

Brett:

Me X you. What does that mean

Gracey:

We did on X Anyway,

Brett:

Yeah, I don't think anybody's going to start calling it X, but we will see. Time will tell. That'll be interesting to fall along for sure. So deal cheats, you're focused on deals. So when you're going live on Amazon or you're going live on TikTok, you are talking about deals. So here's a trending product, a trending category, but here's where you can find it for less

Gracey:

Type thing. Exactly, exactly.

Brett:

Cool, cool. Makes a lot of sense actually what you described, what you described. So interesting. There may be some brands out there selling a premium and they're like, I hate that. I want people to come buy my product for a premium. But here's the thing, I think there are people that are willing to pay a premium. There are people that are just willing, just want to do deals. And then I think there are people that they will pay a premium or they'll get a deal if they don't know there's a strong enough reason to pay a premium. And so I think what you're describing is what happens a lot on Amazon, someone who's wanting to sell out a premium, they run Facebook ads or on YouTube ads and they position their practice premium, but they don't do quite enough to make someone say, I want that product, that exact product.

All they do is they do enough to make someone say, I want a product like that, and then they'll go find something else. And so hey, deals are always going to exist. There's a part of the marketplace that wants that exclusively. But I think it's just a reminder, if you don't want to be a discount brand, you got to work extra hard to not be one. So really, really interesting. Okay, awesome. So any mistakes you see people make as they're getting into Facebook lives or mistakes you see people make when they're trying to get something to go viral on TikTok? What mistakes should we avoid in this process?

Gracey:

So there's two things I want to mention, and I think the first one is that sometimes when brands work with a new creator, they want to have a lot of creative control over how the video goes or what people say. Or a lot of times brands will say, oh, mention that it's vegan and that it's on all these buzzword terms that they may believe is important. They worked really hard to create an amazing product That is all these things, yes, but I as a creator know that that's not going to sell the product necessarily. Cool. I love that it's vegan and gluten-free, but these buzzwords aren't going to sell. And so giving the creator the creative control to say what they know works well and talk to their audience and in the way that they know is what they're looking for and what resonates. That's really important. And so that kind of goes back to just making sure that you look at the creator's other content, see how it performs, see how they come across on camera and make sure you like that and put that trust into them that they know what they're doing. That is one.

Brett:

Yeah, I love that. And just a quick thought on that and then keep going on mistakes is you want the influencer to sound authentic. You want their passion to come through. I want excited Gracey talking about my product. I don't want someone to be like, I'm just going to say what you told me to say. I want to get paid as a viewer, as a shopper. I can feel the difference. I can see the difference, I can feel it. I want passion to come through. And so yes, maybe there's some things you're restricted from saying than mention that, but otherwise let the creator create the results are going to be way

Gracey:

Better. Exactly. And then the second one would be their mindset around influencer marketing as well. So something that I've come across is that a lot of brands will compare influencer marketing to the mindset around paid ads. So when they do paid ads, wherever that may be, they put a certain amount of money behind it and they expect a certain r o i to come back to them. And that is not always the case with influencer marketing. There is a lot that you can't really determine or predict with influencer marketing. But also even if you don't get the sales that you're expecting, that doesn't mean that the campaign was a flop, that it was a failure, that it didn't get anything because maybe you got a bunch of external clicks, maybe you got higher ranking, maybe your product got a lot of external traffic. There's so many other things that happen with influencer marketing that is so much more than paid ads and so much more than just sheer sales. So I want the mindset to hopefully understand that not everything is about sales, and I'm getting so many other benefits from working with a creator than just r o i in sales. I

Brett:

Love that understanding. What's the nature of influencer marketing? How does it work? It's not the same as paid ads. And so if you want to be successful, you got to approach it with a creator, with an influencer mindset. And you mentioned this, you said this really well earlier, that when you go live on Amazon as an example, it gets better over time. The more people see your product, the more Amazon sees success, the more they're going to favor you and show you. I'm not a social media influencer, but I know the same is true on social media that the more we post consistently, the more we do things on social media, the better it's going to go. And sometimes things are going to really hit and take off, sometimes they won't. But yeah, you can't just have it, Hey, I did this, it should have this return. It's not as clear cut, but the benefits often do compound and you got to be patient and wait for those benefits. Love that, love that. Any other tips, ideas, strategies? What should Amazon sellers, and if someone's really, really interested in this, what should they do next? Where should they learn? Where should they go?

Gracey:

Yeah, so I mean there is thankfully so much more information and just education coming around this topic, which I love to see so much of what I love to do is just bridging the gap between creator and brand because I do know that there's a communication gap between both sides. So

Brett:

Influencers speak, influencer brands speak brand. Exactly. And they don't often connect with each other

Gracey:

And it should be mutually beneficial. Totally. That's the nature of it. And so I think if people want to get more involved with this or just start out and try and you don't have to put a huge budget behind it, that's always what I say. You don't have to throw thousands of dollars. You can start out with gifted campaigns, commission-based campaigns, start developing these relationships with influencers and then find people who it works with and then double down and then increase your budget over time. And I believe it should always be a slice of what you're doing with your brand's marketing. I don't think it's smart to fully depend on P P C fully depend on ads because I think there's an area of influence marketing that both of these things can't give. So I think everybody should start out, try, start small, learn as they go, and then increase once they start getting more experience with it and they will see all the benefits.

Brett:

I love it. And I really think this is for some brands, is going to be more of like an accelerant for other brands. This is core of what they do. But I totally agree with you. You can't be all P P C, right? And I'm a Google fan. I've been doing Google ads since the early two thousands, so love Google. But I would never recommend a brand only run paid search or Google Shopping or even Performance Max. I love YouTube, but I would never suggest you just do YouTube. All of these things work together. And so if I've got my strategies dialed in all the right places and then I've got influencer marketing cooking and I'm going on Amazon live, it can really help accelerate and spin that flywheel faster and get you where you want to go a little bit quicker. And so love that though. Start small, do commission based deals, do gift based deals, no reason to spend a fortune right out the gate. And so awesome, awesome stuff, Gracey right back, ladies and gentlemen. So Gracey, people should follow you online. They should pay attention to what you're doing because they can learn from it. So where can they find you? So at deal cheats on the Twitters and where else can they find you?

Gracey:

On X?

Brett:

On X? Yeah, exactly.

Gracey:

X on Facebook, TikTok, Instagram, Amazon, live everywhere. It is the same deal sheets. It's

Brett:

All deal sheets.

Gracey:

Okay. Yes, yes. Got it. And my email is contact@dealsheets.com,

Brett:

Contact@dealsheets.com. Don't abuse that. Ladies and gentlemen, Gracey is a very busy person, but if you got, so basically people have questions or whatever, they can reach out to you there.

Gracey:

Yes, yes. I'm open to questions and happy to help.

Brett:

Very gracious of you, Gracey. So with that, anything else you want to mention? Any fun fact, anything you are totally excited about right now could be related to this topic or not related to this topic?

Gracey:

Gosh, I don't know. I'm excited for the future of this industry. I'm excited to see more brands get involved with influencer marketing and that is what I'm excited about.

Brett:

Yeah, I am too. I think this is here to stay. It is not going anywhere. This is just fundamental, the way humans behave and shop and one kind of thing. One final thing, one final thought I'll put on here is, the other thing I love about this is I mentioned YouTube, big YouTube guy, we do a lot of scaling on YouTube for larger brands. What's really powerful is if you've got a collection of influencer videos that really are passionate and that resonate and that overcome objections and nail some sales points, if you get approval from the influencer, we can do a mashup. One of my favorite types of videos on YouTube is an influencer mashup or like a mashup for the beginning of a YouTube video and then kind of go into a product demo. But that's another way to leverage this. So use influencer marketing, it's going to pay dividends directly, but then if you get access to the footage, now teams like O M G or other agencies can help scale that on Facebook and on YouTube and on the places. And so lots of ways to leverage this content and to leverage this approach

Gracey:

That remind me of one last point I have. Yeah,

Brett:

Awesome. Please, if

Gracey:

You are a brand registered, obviously you have access to the brand referral bonus program as a seller. So you should definitely take advantage of that when working with creators because you can get so much more detailed tracking. And the way that you can have the creator use your attribution link is for the referral kickback that you get from Amazon, whatever that is, 10% depending on category. But you can then offer them that increased commission for whatever sales that they create from the attribution it. And then you benefit, they benefit, take

Brett:

Advantage, easier tracking. Yeah, you can use that to help fund or help pay for the influencer. So glad we stuck around for that tip, Gracey. That was a good one. So again, Gracey, thank you so much. Thanks for bringing the energy, super fun, super entertaining and really appreciate it.

Gracey:

Thank you Brett.

Brett:

And as always, thank you for tuning in and hey, we want to hear from you. I mentioned I'm on the socials, I'm not an influencer, but I am there. So check me out on LinkedIn. Lemme know what you'd like to see more of on the show. Let's connect outside of the podcast. Also leave us that review on iTunes. If you haven't done that, leave us. That five star review helps other people find the show. Makes my day. And with that, until next time, thank you for listening.

‍

‍

No one knows more about eCommerce growth than my friend Ezra Firestone. Arguably, no one is a more interesting interview than Ezra either. This episode does NOT disappoint. Ezra bootstrapped growth for Boom from $0 to $40mill + per year. He also recently bought another high-profile eComm brand (more on that in the show).This episode is straight fire. Here’s a look at what we dive into:

• How Ezra is approaching email marketing and email list growth in 2022. I’m guessing you’re missing his email strategy - even if you consider yourself an email marketing pro.
• How BOOM is approaching front-end offers.
• Why you should consider inventing a holiday and how BOOM has done that.
• Growing your SMS list.
• Plus MUCH, much more!

‍

Mentioned in this Episode:

Ezra Firestone

   - LinkedIn

   - Instagram

   - Twitter

   - Facebook

BOOM! by Cindy Joseph‍

oVertone‍

Zipify Pages‍

Smart Marketer‍

Blue Ribbon Mastermind‍

Klaviyo‍

Postscript‍

Attentive‍

Dan Kennedy‍

Jay Abraham‍

Native Deodorant‍

Northbeam‍

John Grimshaw‍

Molly Pittman‍

Train My Traffic Person

‍

Transcript:

Brett Curry:

Welcome to the Spicy Curry Podcast, where we explore hot takes in e-commerce and digital marketing. We feature some of the brightest guests with the spiciest perspectives on what it takes to grow your business online. Season one is built on the old business adage that it really takes three things to succeed. One, have something good to say. Two, say it well. And three, say it often.

Brett Curry:

Today, my guest is none other than the e-commerce legend himself, Ezra Firestone. If you're serious about growing your e-commerce business, then you have to pay attention to Ezra. And arguably, there's not a more interesting interview than Ezra Firestone. He bootstrapped Boom by Cindy Joseph from zero to now, $40 million a year in growth. He now owns and operates Overtone, a $25 million a year e-commerce brand. He also co-founded Zipify Pages, Smart Marketer, and he's the mastermind behind my favorite e-commerce mastermind, Blue Ribbon.

Brett Curry:

This is a wide ranging discussion. We talk about things like cold plunges and samurai swords. But yes of course, we spend most of our time talking about e-commerce growth strategies. We look at Ezra's really unique approach to email marketing, and how much of his ad budget he's dedicating to growing his email list. We also look at SMS marketing. And we look at how to invent a holiday, and what that looks like. And then we're also looking at how Boom is crafting and creating front end offers. You won't want to miss a minute of this show. I hope you enjoy my interview with Ezra Firestone.

Brett Curry:

The Spicy Curry Podcast is brought to you by OMG Commerce, Attentive, OneClickUpsell, Zipify Pages, and Payability. All right, I am absolutely stoked out of my mind for this next guest, and personal friend of mine. We do some work together. I always count it a joy when I get to talk to this guest. And so, to have this uninterrupted time to dive in deep on strategies, it's going to be amazing, and I'm glad you get to listen in. And so if I look at, man, if you need tactics, if you need strategies, if you need help for how to take your e-commerce business to the next level, and if you need to get a little bit spicy, you need Ezra Firestone.

Brett Curry:

And so today I've got the man, the myth, the legend. He's flexing if you're watching the video. Got Ezra Firestone on the call. We're talking about eight top strategies to just blow up your business this year in a good way. We may not get to all eight, we'll see how it goes. But with that intro, Ezra, what's up, man? How you doing? And welcome to the show.

Ezra Firestone:

Brett, the Fury Curry, I'm fresh out of the cold plunge, dog. One minute, 30 seconds, 32 degrees. My whole body is red, I'm shivering, I'm shaking, we're podcasting. Happy to be here man, thanks.

Brett Curry:

It's hilarious. You hopped on the call and I was like, "Oh no, something's wrong with Ezra. He just doesn't look right." It's like, well, you just got out of a 32 degree bathtub. Of course, your body's in shock. But I appreciate taking the time to do this. And man, it's just always, always fun to chat.

Ezra Firestone:

Yeah, man. And just watching your journey, I seen you come up in the game from back in the day, when you had an SEO agency. You know?

Brett Curry:

Yeah.

Ezra Firestone:

From way back. I don't even know if it was 2008, 2009, it was a long time ago. 2010, whatever it was. And then to watch you rise to be one of the most prominent voices in the e-commerce world, and also to have a top 2% advertising agency, maybe you guys are top 1% at this point, I mean, you run all of our stuff. So it's been fun to watch your journey and just happy to be on the podcast.

Brett Curry:

Dude, thanks. It's been so fun to grow. I credit you and your community with a lot of that growth. And your approach to having fun, and doing what's right, and being extremely successful, and that blend, is awesome. Your motto, for those that don't know, is "Serve the world unselfishly and profit." And actually before we get into tactics and strategies for this year, and there's some amazing ones, can you talk a little bit about that for those that are new to the world of Ezra Firestone?

Ezra Firestone:

Yeah, I mean, I think that's a description-

Brett Curry:

... Yeah.

Ezra Firestone:

I think it's a description, not a statement. It's how I have seen things work. That when you are in a role of service, unselfishly with the goal of serving, you do profit by the very nature of serving. And it may not be monetarily. Maybe it's spiritually, mentally, emotionally, physically, energetically. But my goal is to serve. And I find joy in the act of service. I think there's a lot of value, and fun, and enjoyment, and good. And also in business, if you can truly serve a community, you will be profitable. And so I think that's just a description of how it goes. And also it's what I'm looking to do. I'm looking to serve the world unselfishly and also profit. I want to take care of my family. I want to take care of my community. I want to put resource towards causes in the world that I find noble. And I need fucking money to do that. Right?

Brett Curry:

Exactly. Yeah.

Ezra Firestone:

And the way going to get that money is by helping a group of people out with solutions to problems they have.

Brett Curry:

Yeah, I love that. If you look at, what is leadership, what does it mean to lead a company or to be a CEO, it's really serving. Serving your team more than commanding and dictating.

Ezra Firestone:

100%.

Brett Curry:

And how do build a brand, how do you build a business? It's serving a community. It's serving the needs and meeting the needs of buyers. And so, yeah. I love it. So it's really, really just-

Ezra Firestone:

Yeah. And then just because you're serving a group, doesn't mean you can't sell them stuff.

Brett Curry:

Exactly.

Ezra Firestone:

Selling them stuff is also serving them.

Brett Curry:

Because people want to buy stuff, right?

Ezra Firestone:

Yeah.

Brett Curry:

They want to have those needs met. And retail therapy is a thing too. So one of the greatest acts of service you can do, is sell a good product to the right person.

Ezra Firestone:

I'll tell you what dude. You and I both know that this last six months have been the most intense and stressful on the personal side of my life, with some health problems of some family members. And I done fucking discovered stress shopping, bro. I had never done that. I'm not a guy who buys shit that I just don't need or want. I'm willing to buy things. I have a lot of money, and I didn't come from money. I now have more money than basically everyone that I know, and I'm not against purchasing things. But I usually purchase things that I really like. I'll buy a nice espresso machine, or I'll buy a nice skateboard.

Brett Curry:

Which I've had espresso from that espresso machine. And you pull a mean shot of espresso, my friend.

Ezra Firestone:

Yeah. I will spend money happily on things that are enjoyable and that I will use, but I don't just buy frivolously, until now, dude. I bought six pairs of the same Chelsea boot. When I turned around, I was like, "What? I have lost my mind, dude." This is stress shopping.

Brett Curry:

Why did I buy this?

Ezra Firestone:

Yeah.

Brett Curry:

I think one time I was on a call with you and you just recently bought like a samurai sword or something. I don't think it was actually a samurai sword, but it was some kind of sword.

Ezra Firestone:

A katana. Yeah, it was a Japanese katana. I use it to chop wood for my sweat lodge. So that was actually a useful tool. It's good for chopping kindling.

Brett Curry:

Yeah. That's awesome, man. Super fun. So people are buying right now. The economy's pretty hot, and certainly there are some issues too. But people are buying stuff. So let's dive in. You recently wrote a blog post, which I'm going to link to, so you can see this in the show notes, talking about eight top growth strategies. And first of all, for those that don't know the journey, talk about Boom by Cindy Joseph and how it's grown.

Ezra Firestone:

(singing)

Brett Curry:

Because you guys are set to do about 40 million this year, right?

Ezra Firestone:

So I started this brand in 2010. Took me to 2014 to make my first million dollar a year in total revenue. By 2016, I was doing 17 million. This last year, I did 42. This year I think I'll do 47. Top line revenue at about a 25% EBIDA margin, so maybe making six or 7 million a year in profit on that.

Brett Curry:

Which is amazing. Amazing.

Ezra Firestone:

I got about 30 employees at that company. I also own Zipify Apps, about a $10 million a year software company. Also a couple million bucks in profit on that, maybe about 60 employees there. And I just bought a company called Overtone Color, which has about 20 team members. It'll do about 25, 30 million this year. And I got Smart Marketer too. And I'm just a guy. I didn't go to college, I have no special skills, other than that I'm a good communicator and I'm willing to put my foot down and do the work, and ask for help when I need it. And I think my story shows that if... I'm a complete failure in the eyes of the school system. They labeled me a dumb kid, and someone who was not going to be successful. And I think for anybody who doesn't fit into the mold, who maybe is dyslexic, or maybe has some reason why the general society is telling them that they can't be successful, the internet opens up an opportunity for us.

Ezra Firestone:

And there's skills that we can develop. Advertising, direct response marketing, landing page optimization, copywriting, product development, podcasting, social media, that can support us in taking care of our families. And I didn't come from resource, and so I wanted to create that. And I've been able to, and I've been doing it now for 17 years. I got pretty fucking good at it. I made every mistake you could make. I didn't pay my taxes, I did all the stupid you can do. But I did it when I was younger, and earlier in my... And I didn't have podcasts like yours to learn from. I had a bunch of creepy dudes on an internet forum who were shilling fucking gambling and porn. That was when I got into the game.

Brett Curry:

Yeah. Online marketing was a bit of a dark place back in those early days.

Ezra Firestone:

You didn't want to say you were an internet marketer. It wasn't good.

Brett Curry:

No, no, that was not prestigious. No one looked at that highly. For sure.

Ezra Firestone:

So yeah. So I've been doing it a long time now, I'm really good at it. And I've been talking about it since about 2011. I was one of the first people to start blogging about e-commerce. And by the very nature of being one of the first, I became popular. Not that I was anything special than anyone else, but I was the first to do it, and so I got real popular. And I've stayed in that space of documenting my journey. And I got a bunch of people who think it's cool, and follow what I do. And I'm pretty good at it, you know?

Brett Curry:

Yeah.

Ezra Firestone:

And I've been able to successfully train and educate, and bring up in the game, thousands and thousands of internet entrepreneurs over the years. You being one of them who I've impacted.

Brett Curry:

Big time.

Ezra Firestone:

Not that I did anything for you, other than show you what I was doing. So yeah, so I like talking about this stuff.

Brett Curry:

It's been so amazing to watch that progression as well, and getting to see behind the scenes, seeing you operate with your team. So I've been to your house and I've hung out with the inner circle of Smart Marketer and Boom. And of course we were on calls, and our agency serves you and stuff. So I've seen you in a lot of different capacities. And man, you're the same leader behind the scenes as you are on stage. You care about people on stage or one on one. You're extremely smart and strategic, and you get marketing, and you understand human in nature, and you take massive action. All kinds of stuff we can break down. So it's been really fun to observe that and get the front row seat of that as well.

Ezra Firestone:

I can also do a cool poker chip trick. Look at this.

Brett Curry:

Is that right? Oh, look at that.

Ezra Firestone:

Wait.

Brett Curry:

Look at that.

Ezra Firestone:

Hold on. Damn, that was not cool. I dropped it. Hold on.

Brett Curry:

We're going to try this again. So if you're listening, just take my word for it. He's a great poker chip-

Ezra Firestone:

My hands are frozen. My hands are frozen. We should probably get into tactics.

Brett Curry:

Do not attempt a poker chip trick out of a cold plunge.

Ezra Firestone:

People are going to be like, "Enough of this bullshit, dude. You should talk about some tactics." We should talk about some strategies.

Brett Curry:

Exactly. So here we go. So let's dive in. One thing that we've seen you guys operate on, we're running this on YouTube for you, but you're buying more email leads. So talk about that. So this is top strategy number one, buying more email leads. What does that look like, and why?

Ezra Firestone:

Dude, nobody's talking about email. Everybody's like "SMS, video ads." This and that. Well guess what has always been since I've been in the game, about 25 to 40% of my business? Literally since '05, dude. Emails.

Brett Curry:

Email. Email.

Ezra Firestone:

I've been sending motherfucking emails since 2005. And it is to this day, it'll be 36% of Boom's total revenue this year.

Brett Curry:

It's crazy.

Ezra Firestone:

And nobody-

Brett Curry:

Email touches 36% of all purchases through Boom.

Ezra Firestone:

Yeah, it's last click, dude. It's last click for 36% of my purchases.

Brett Curry:

It's awesome.

Ezra Firestone:

So why would I not be putting so much energy in growing that list? Nobody does it. Everybody just runs top of funnel video ads, conversion ads, and they hope that when somebody comes to their website, their onsite popup, or their card abandonment, or their exit intent, are going to capture the email lead for them. Great, do that. But also, you know what I'm doing? Gated content. I'm doing giveaways. I'm doing all kinds of different straight up lead generation campaigns. One of my best ones, is we use these things called pre-sell articles, which are basically articles that are story-based, like, "Five makeup tips for older women." Or "Seven makeup tips for women who wear glasses." Or "How to overcome perfectionism in your fifties." Or whatever kind of content that our community is interested in, that leads back to our products.

Ezra Firestone:

And we use those in our email auto responders, we run ads to them, we mail them to our email list. We use them everywhere. At every stage of the sales process. What we also do, is we gate them. So we put an opt-in front of it, and it says, "Hey, enter email address here to get our five makeup tips for women over 50." We run ads to that with a conversion objective for the lead event, the lead event fires on the thank you page. They enter their email address, guess where they get dropped? On the same pre-sell that I'm running at the top of the funnel.

Ezra Firestone:

But now we have their email lead, and we put them on a automation sequence, to warm them up and try to sell them. And if they don't buy, we put them on our bucket list. I also run giveaways every six weeks. And basically those are my two main top of funnel lead gen strategies, is gated content and giveaways. But I'll do Facebook lives, and I'll do other things as well. But if you just do gated content and giveaways, you should spend about five to 10% of your total marketing budget on email lead generation. Because some people take a little longer to warm up than others. So if you're only running conversion ads, you're going to miss out on growing your audience in a way that could be beneficial for you.

Brett Curry:

Yeah. I love this so much, and it's something that we've observed you doing, and something we're talking about now with other clients. That, if you can grow that email list, and if you're properly running email marketing, you're going to be able to convert that at a really high rate. And so gated content, so information people want, and/or giveaways, great ways to drive that list. And I was looking through some of your notes here. Looks like over the last 12 months you spent about 200,000 buying email leads that have then generated 750,000 in sales. So about a 375% return on add spend. That's not bad. But that's not like-

Ezra Firestone:

And that's with excluding anybody who was already on the list, dude.

Brett Curry:

What's that?

Ezra Firestone:

That's with excluding anyone who was already on the list. So those are new leads.

Brett Curry:

Just strictly new leads. So that really changes the game, because you could be looking at those campaigns and thinking, "Well, I just drove an email sign up. I didn't make a sale there, so it's not really worth a whole lot." But then you've got to look at that whole picture. What did those email subscribers do for you over the next six to 12 months? And in your case, it's a 3.75 X ROAS, which is amazing.

Ezra Firestone:

Pretty sweet. I mean, not that everyone's going to have that result, but it's worth doing, still, nonetheless.

Brett Curry:

Exactly. So, all right, awesome. So strategy number one, buy more email leads. I'm sold on that idea. Idea number two, launch new products. So talk about how Boom is approaching launching new products.

Ezra Firestone:

So to have a successful e-commerce business, you have to get your repeat customer rate up. Ideally over 30% of total revenue comes from repeat customers, people who bought from you once before. The best way to do that is to sell them more of what they already bought, if it's consumable. Or to introduce new items that they might want from you. And by the way, if somebody knows you, likes you, trust you, you're putting out content, you're engaging them, you've delivered a good product, they're going to probably want to buy whatever else you have to offer if it's tangentially related to what they bought in the first place.

Ezra Firestone:

So what we do is we send a customer survey every six months to our two X buyers, and we give them a bunch of stuff, like "If we were going to add more colors, what colors do you want? If you could wave a magic wand, what products would you have us create?" We have a 20 question survey. We say, "Hey, five people who take this survey are going to win $100 gift certificate to the store". We get a couple thousand responses. Based on that, we figure out what products to make next, based on the desire of our community.

Brett Curry:

That creates your product roadmap.

Ezra Firestone:

As an example, 50% of people wanted a mascara, 46% of people wanted a lip gloss, and 53% of people wanted an additional color of Boomstick. We released all three of those products last year, based on that information. They were our three best product launches ever. We just released the Boomstick color last week, we sold 15,000 units in 18 hours. 650 grand in revenue in 18 hours.

Brett Curry:

Whoa. Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. Say that again. You sold what?

Ezra Firestone:

We sold 15,000 units in 18 hours, dude. We sold out. 650 grand in 18 hours. Now of course I've got a mature company, but the point is that this process gets better over time. So when you're developing a new product, you're doing it in desire to your past customers, in relationship to their desire. And for us, you have componentry, formulation, and secondary packaging. So componentry is like, what is the component that it's going to go in? Well, the Boomstick, we already have that. That's great, we'll reuse the component we already have. The formula is, what is it going to be, why is it going to be that way, what are the benchmarks other brands are doing that we want to meet? We go through a bunch of iterations, we send it out to our best customers to test. It takes us about six months to a year to develop a formula.

Ezra Firestone:

And then our secondary packaging, is what is the box, what's the write alongs, what are the inserts? We get all that together, we run a photo shoot for it. And then we do an early bird. "Hey, we're going to launch this new product. This is what it is. Get excited, sign up for it to hear about it first." And then what happens is, as they're signing up, and as they're posting on social about it on the thread, we're finding out what they want to know. They're asking, "Is it hypoallergenic?" And we're like, "Oh shit, we don't have hypoallergenic on the sales page. It is hypo allergenic." So we add that to the sales page. The questions they ask, they become the FAQs that we put on the... So we use the pre-launch as a way to build out the marketing material. Build out the FAQ, build out the sales page.

Ezra Firestone:

And then we launch it, run ads to it, do emails to it. And then it becomes part of our ongoing marketing. Put it in bundles. And you can do this too with products you already have. So you can reformulate them to make them better than they already are. Based on feedback, you can change the componentry or packaging, make it more sustainable. You can bundle it with other items to make a kit. So you can renew and make better products you already have, and relaunch them, as well as introducing new items. But for us, we are aiming to introduce four new items a year, which is once a quarter, which is hard to do.

Brett Curry:

That's aggressive. That's one a quarter.

Ezra Firestone:

It's hard to do when you're making them all from scratch.

Brett Curry:

It's hard to do, yeah.

Ezra Firestone:

But it's a huge, huge part of the business. So yeah, it's really important to continually making the products better.

Brett Curry:

Yeah. And it's interesting that it's also fairly risky, too, to launch a new product. Will it go well, will it not go well? But the approach you're taking, it really eliminates a lot of the risk. You know that if you deliver a good product, which you guys do, you know how to do that, you're delivering exactly what someone is requesting, and exactly what someone wants.

Ezra Firestone:

Yeah, and they also then can become a new top of funnel sales processes. So we can run top of funnel ads now. So for our mascara, I mean, that's our second best seller of all time, and we can run it at the top of the funnel because everybody's interested in mascara. And we didn't have one before. So we couldn't run ads for it at the top of the funnel. So we were missing a customer acquisition funnel there that we were able to add to the business.

Brett Curry:

Love it. And so then this actually directly ties into it. So this is strategy number three. Create more front end offers. So talk about that and how that's evolved for Boom, more front end offers.

Ezra Firestone:

I think that's mature business strategy. For Boom, we did 10 years where we had one front end offer, which was our Boomstick trio.

Brett Curry:

Yeah. Boomstick.

Ezra Firestone:

And all of our social proof, all of our sales funnel optimization, all of our pre-sales, all of our video ads, all of our email sequences, everything was about that front end offer. Just make that as deep as possible. Have marketing assets for it, loyalty assets for it. Just really work on that and scale that. And that's a lot easier to go deep rather than wide. And a lot of people have a thousand skews, and they can't do that. Like with this product, this brand, I bought, Overtone, I got a hundred skews. So it's hard for me to have one front end funnel.

Ezra Firestone:

But for low skew e-commerce, it's easy. You just pick whatever your widest and best seller, and most relevant seller is, and just focus on that. But once you scale that, now you got to start introducing new front end offers. There's only so many people who are interested in a multipurpose blush stick. Some people aren't interested in blush, but they're interested in mascara, or lip gloss, or brow gel, or whatever. So we've now introduced a bunch more products to the... You're right, my voice is kind of frozen. It's funny, I sound like a frog.

Brett Curry:

You're good, dude. Hey, you're so you're bringing the fire, even though I'm feeling cold for you.

Ezra Firestone:

I usually have such a rich, deep voice, man. Anyways, it gives us the ability to have more fish hooks in the sea.

Brett Curry:

Yeah. Love it. Love it. Let's go on to the next one, and this is related to number one, but this is now strategy number four.

Ezra Firestone:

By the way, another front end funnel is one of those lead gen funnels, too. Even if it's leading to the same product.

Brett Curry:

Yes.

Ezra Firestone:

It's a new top of funnel way of getting people in the mix. That's a new funnel. It doesn't have to be a new product.

Brett Curry:

Totally. And so looking at that, and what we've observed, working with Boom, working with other successful brands, is that a lot of them have one to three really successful top end funnels that they just push hard on, almost forever. And then with some tweaking and changing, and then you've got all your backend stuff as well. So, yeah. Really, really good. So let's talk then about strategy number four, growing your SMS subscribers. So diving into text based marketing. So, tips or suggestions you would give there for growing that list and utilizing SMS?

Ezra Firestone:

I mean, the 80/20 of SMS is this. Have the collection at checkout, where you're collecting people who check out from you, who click the little box to be collected. And have a two step opt in. First, get the email, second, incentivize for the SMS. So they come to your site, you say, "Hey, get 10% off, entering your email address". They enter it. "Hey, by the way, do you want an extra 5%? Give us your SMS". Klaviyo lets you do this, Postscript lets you do this, Attentive lets you do this, et cetera. Those are your two main ways to collect. And that's 85, 90% of the value. You can do other shit to collect, but it's not worth it. Just do that. And then when you send an abandoned card email and they don't open after 18 hours, slide a text in there, via Klaviyo. So connect it to your email logic, and do your-

Brett Curry:

Is that usually the way you do it, where you'll email first? And then if there's no response there, then you text?

Ezra Firestone:

Always. Yeah, because SMS is more expensive. So we'll use it as a... And you can only do this if you're using Klaviyo, because it talks to it. You can't have Attentive in Klaviyo, because they don't talk to each other. So if you're using Klaviyo, Klaviyo's a little more expensive for SMS, but if you're doing it the way I do, it doesn't matter, because you're only using it as a... You know? You're using it as a way to capture the people who aren't responding to email. Instead of just blasting them with both, and spending the money for that. So, if they don't respond to the card email, we'll slide an SMS. If we go purchase email, they don't cross-sell, we'll slide an SMS. And then once a week, you broadcast your bucket list with a piece of content or a sale. That's it. That's all you need to do. Have an opt in pre purchase, have an opt in at checkout, use it in your automation sequences, do one broadcast a week, your solid potato salad, you have 85% of the value you can get from SMS.

Brett Curry:

Yeah. You really go beyond that, it's just going to be tiny little gains. And potentially a difference-

Ezra Firestone:

It's not worth it. It's not worth it.

Brett Curry:

Not worth it. Not worth the effort.

Ezra Firestone:

Just spend your energy acquiring more customers.

Brett Curry:

Yeah, totally. And so those weekly broadcast on SMS, are you doing a mix of promotions and content?

Ezra Firestone:

So those will be content. The best piece of content from the week will drop via the SMS. And then if we're running a sale, that week, we won't send content, we'll send about the sale.

Brett Curry:

And your best piece of content pulling from the way Boom is doing it, it's based on blog, is that right? So you're writing blogs weekly or something?

Ezra Firestone:

We send three pieces of content to our list every week. Maybe it's a long form article, maybe it's a user generated content video, maybe it's a recap from a Facebook live we did. Whatever. We're sending content every week, at least three pieces, long form written articles, videos, user generated content. We've got a whole social media content engagement system. And so whatever worked the best that week, we'll drop to the SMS list. And then every six-

Brett Curry:

Nice. So you're emailing that content initially. So you're emailing-

Ezra Firestone:

Yeah, we're emailing that, we're posting it to the blog, we're posting out to social, we're amplifying it. We're doing the whole system. And then the best shit, we drop to the list, which links over to the blog. And we drop to the SMS list. And then every six weeks we're running a product launch or a sale. So that sixth week will be a promotion via SMS.

Brett Curry:

Got it. And anything you can say about response rates, metrics? How is SMS working in comparison to email? I know it's just designed to be a compliment to email, but anything you can say about stats, performance?

Ezra Firestone:

Yeah, I mean, SMS gets better response rates, but you have smaller lists. And you get way more unsubscribes. So it's-

Brett Curry:

And you got to be really careful about spam related stuff.

Ezra Firestone:

Yeah.

Brett Curry:

People get pretty hot on-

Ezra Firestone:

Yeah. Yeah. There's a lot you got to worry about with that. But basically it works really well, and you should use it as a compliment, and not instead of... And you should do what I'm talking about, which is basically 80/20 it.

Brett Curry:

Not really standalone. You're not going to just be like, "Hey, SMS is my one strategy."

Ezra Firestone:

Some brands do. Some brands do. But I think if you ignore email, what are we doing?

Brett Curry:

Right. For most people, it's just a beautiful compliment, and a way to really increase the effectiveness of email. But it is a compliment. Awesome. So now we're going to move into strategy number five. I actually love this one. I love all of them, this is all gold. But this is something that was kind of an aha moment for me. I first heard about a strategy like this, it was made be Dan Kennedy back in the day, maybe Jay Abraham. I go way back, man, looking at marketing stuff. But you're talking about inventing a holiday. So there's this idea that people need a reason why. They need a reason why I should buy now, they need a reason why your product is better. And sometimes an invented holiday is a great reason why you should buy now. So, talk about invented holidays, and talk about what you're doing at Boom.

Ezra Firestone:

So excuses to communicate are important. And we take everyone we can. We communicate on Earth Day, we communicate on Animal Friendly Day, we communicate on National Dog Day. Because people like that kind of shit.

Brett Curry:

They do. People like it.

Ezra Firestone:

And everybody has a dog, and everybody likes the earth, and so on and so forth. And we do too. And so we are always doing emails like that. Like, "Hey, it's Earth Day. And you know what? We care a lot about sustainability. And these are our most sustainable products, for these reasons." And whatever. And so we're constantly mailing on using the fake or created holidays as a reason to communicate on social and on email. And so we made up our own. We made Pro-Age Month. We are the first people to say pro-age. Now it's a commonly known thing. Now you've got a million knock brands, but we spent 40 million over six years, popularizing the concept of pro-age, back in 2010. And now Allure is stealing it, and it's like we have penetrated the mainstream with this.

Brett Curry:

It's awesome.

Ezra Firestone:

We've entered the zeitgeist with this concept. And so now it's a thing. And so we want to claim ownership of that, because we do own it. You don't never own an idea, but we created that movement. And so we created Pro-Age Month. And the month of August is Pro-Age Month. And we tell pro-age stories, and we've got a logo for it. And we are claiming our rights to the pro-age movement. The pro-age revolution that we started in 2010. And a good way to do that, was to create a holiday around it.

Brett Curry:

Create a holiday, create a month, and people love that. And it's such a great conversation starter and connection point. And if you think about one of the big components of building a brand, is just building that connection and that community. And sometimes odd or unusual holidays do that. And inventing your own holiday, I think it's brilliant. I think more people should look at it. And I think a lot of brands lend themselves well. Maybe it's not pro-age for you, and Ezra owns that anyway, so back off, really. Seriously.

Ezra Firestone:

I mean, whatever. You could say pro-age if you believe in that. What I find, is most people say pro-age and they don't actually know what it means. Which is hilarious. They'll be like, "Pro-age..." this or that. And then they'll have anti-aging skin drops.

Brett Curry:

Yeah. "But cover your gray, and no more wrinkles." Yeah, yeah.

Ezra Firestone:

You've missed the point here.

Brett Curry:

Yeah. Yeah. But inventing a holiday, pure gold, I love it. Anybody can do it. And so highly recommend that as well. So we're getting tied on time, so we're going to have to maybe move rapid fire through some of these or just save some of them for the blog. But number six is, list products on Amazon.

Ezra Firestone:

Yeah.

Brett Curry:

What are you guys doing there for your brands? Talk about that a little bit.

Ezra Firestone:

Amazon will make up 20 to 30% of a good brand's sales. And you're going to miss those customers if you're not over there. And our-

Brett Curry:

Because some people only buy on Amazon. That's just it.

Ezra Firestone:

I mean, yeah. And we waited 10 years to put our products on Amazon, because we could fill the demand that we had with... Our supply chain could barely fill the demand we had from direct to consumer. But once we beefed up our supply chain, and we realized that adding to Amazon wasn't going to cannibalize our direct to consumer platform, we added our main product on there, and it just crushed. It just added 10 to 15% of incremental sales.

Brett Curry:

Immediately. Yeah.

Ezra Firestone:

So now we're adding every one of our products, once every two months, onto Amazon. You guys are running all of our ads over there, doing all of our A plus lists. All we do is do the customer support, and create the assets for the page. You guys literally do everything else. You run all the ads, you optimize all the pages, you handle all the seller support. You do fucking everything for us. So it's great for us, because it's a channel that really works, that we don't really have the expertise for, that you just do for us. I mean, we pay you for it, but probably not what you should get paid. Because I think you give us a deal. But-

Brett Curry:

We do. We do. But, gladly. We gladly give you that deal, for sure.

Ezra Firestone:

Yeah. So it's been really good for us.

Brett Curry:

Yeah, it's been amazing, it's been fun to execute on our end for sure. And one thing we noticed with you, we noticed this with native ... as well, client, friends. And we don't run their Amazon, but we observe. We run their Google and YouTube. Is that there's some expectation that when you launch on Amazon, there's going to be some cannibalization of your store's sales. And certainly that happens some, but this has been mostly incremental growth for you guys, right?

Ezra Firestone:

100% incremental. There's been no cannibalization whatsoever. Which is crazy, because I was sure there was going to be. We sell it at the same price, and some people just like to buy over there. And I think what was happening was a lot of people were seeing our ads on Facebook, going to buy on Amazon, not finding it, and then buying knockoff brands. Because they only buy on Amazon.

Brett Curry:

Buying something else. Buy knockoff. Yeah, we experienced that. That'd be a topic for another podcast. The copycats and the people that were...

Ezra Firestone:

...

Brett Curry:

... really leeching off of your brand name on Amazon.

Ezra Firestone:

Nightmare.

Brett Curry:

But yeah, nightmare for sure. For sure. But we're getting there. So yeah, big believer in Amazon. And what's interesting to me, and this is where Boom and Overtone are set up perfectly for Amazon, is that success on Amazon in the long term, and I think even right now, is based on building a brand. So taking the community building aspect, the brand building aspect that you're doing off Amazon, and do that on Amazon, that's where you see long term success. It's not just hacking the titles and the keywords, and the bullet points, to try to inflate your ranking, or using super URLs, or some other strategy to hack your ranking, but building a real brand.

Brett Curry:

And that's what you guys are good at, and that's what we're helping you with. And it's working. It's working on Amazon right now. So let's talk, and this will probably be our final concept for the podcast, and I'll push the final one, people to go check out on the blog post. But the seventh strategy for growth, is advertising on television. TV? What? Come on now. So what are your thoughts on TV? And this has been fun to watch too, but what are your thoughts on advertising on television?

Ezra Firestone:

I think it's really only for very, very, very mature brands. Because the minimum that you need to do it is 350 grand. Minimum. Just to test. And that's a two month test. And you also have to produce television quality ads. Now we were able to use user generated content. We spent 50 grand on a TV commercial produced by a fancy agency, and at flopped all crazy. And then we made our own ad, based on UGC that we had. And we crushed. So we're much better direct response advertisers than these TV agencies, it turns out. Which we should've known, because we've been fucking running direct response ads for 15 years. Makes sense we would know what would work, versus what they produced. Even though what they produced, it was a whole... We could talk about that another time. It wasn't very good.

Brett Curry:

Yeah. Yeah.

Ezra Firestone:

But it's hard to tell how successful TV has been for us. We've spent about half a million dollars over the course of six months, and I think incrementally, it has been successful. But we're having Northbeam, which is a company you hooked us up with.

Brett Curry:

Shout out to Northbeam, Austin, and the folks there.

Ezra Firestone:

We just turned it off, and looks like sales are down 15K a day since we turned off TV. We'll see. I think TV is great for omnichannel presence. If you're spending three, four, 500K a month on social media ads, you should add in TV at 10, 15% of your budget, to reach more people, and reach the people that you're reaching on social in a different area. And for us, we just turned it off to see how it's going to impact whether we run it or not. And so we're still trying to figure out the attribution on it, and how well it's working. But our sense is that it worked pretty well.

Brett Curry:

Yeah. And that's a great way to test it. Turn it off, see what the impact is there. And it also helps tremendously to have a tool like Northbeam, third party attribution. Brilliant stuff, check it out. And we're seeing some similar things. So first of all, I got my start in TV, radio, print. So I still really like TV. I'm still involved in local TV just a little bit with a friend of mine. But I love this strategy. I think it is for bigger brands. But yeah, if you're spending multi six figures on Facebook ads, YouTube ads, then TV may be something that you check out. But along a similar vein, we're testing now, we tested it with Boom and with a few other clients. Creating some awareness, we call it awareness layer YouTube campaigns.

Brett Curry:

And again, you kind of need something like Northbeam in place, to really see the impact of this. But the idea there, is as well we're just going for low cost engagement, low cost views. We're seeing CPMs for some of these awareness level YouTube campaigns at six bucks, five bucks, which is crazy low. But there's something to be said, and this is marketing 101, old school stuff. If you talk to the right people enough times, with a right message, so right message, right market, right media, you're going to get results. And so obviously you got to be ready for it with budget, and you have to have the tracking in place to really make good use of it. But I love that you guys are testing TV. And I also love the fact that it wasn't the super duper polished stuff that worked. It was what we do. The UGC stuff that did well on TV, too.

Ezra Firestone:

Yeah. It was UGC. And we started doing video view advertising on Facebook, when iOS 14.5 happened, because Facebook lost all its data. So we started running video view campaigns to all the audiences that we used to run conversion campaigns to, to let Facebook build up some data of the people who watched most of our videos. And then we would follow up with those people and run conversion ads to them. And now we're doing that with YouTube as well. And I think that strategy post iOS 14.5 on both networks, where you spend a thousand bucks a day at our scale, running video views, or maybe 10% of your overall spend, is a great strategy. We're doing it at Overtone too.

Brett Curry:

Yeah, that's awesome. Well, this has been amazing, Ezra. So that's seven of the eight tips. Hey, to get that eighth tip, check out the show notes, go check out Ezra's blog, smartmarketer.com, and get that final one. But Ezra, as people are listening, I know we got some super fans-

Ezra Firestone:

I'm cold, man. I'm cold. That's what's going on.

Brett Curry:

You're cold. Then yeah, you need to go warm up, dude.

Ezra Firestone:

I do. I need ...

Brett Curry:

Get your robe, get your blanket, go sit by the fire, or something like that. But for those that are listening and thinking, "I need more Ezra Firestone in my life." How can they connect with you, where should they learn more about you? Where should they do that?

Ezra Firestone:

I'm on Instagram @ezrafirestone, I'm on Twitter @ezrafirestone, I'm on Facebook, Facebook.com/MeetEzra. I'm on smartmarketer.com, which is a blog that I have, I'm on zipify.com, which are my apps for Shopify. But you can find me on social media. I'm on YouTube, all the social media networks. Whatever ones you use, I'm there. You can Google me on there or search me on there. And yeah. Thanks for hanging out, hope it's been some kind of helpful. Appreciate you, Brett. I love that you're between two ferns over there.

Brett Curry:

That's a hilarious show. And you're not the first person to say that. They're like, "Dude, are you between two ferns here? Are you Zach Galifianakis or what? What are you doing?" I'm a little more courteous to my guests and a little more on topic, but that show is hilarious.

Ezra Firestone:

It's awesome, dude.

Brett Curry:

But another plug that I'll make here as I'm sitting between two ferns, is, do check out Smart Marketer. Molly Pittman, John Grimshaw, running that with Ezra's leadership, Ezra started it. But some amazing resources there. Train My Traffic Person. So if you got in-house media buyers, you need to send them through Train My Traffic Person. You get to learn from me too, I'm a faculty member there teaching YouTube and teaching Google. But check that out, smartmarketer.com. Highly, Highly recommend it.

Ezra Firestone:

Thank y'all.

Brett Curry:

Awesome. Ezra, appreciate it, brother. This has been amazing, thank you so much. And see you next time.

Ezra Firestone:

Talk soon.

‍

I’ve never met anyone quite like Miki Agrawal.

‍

She’s incredibly creative. No really. She once hosted a “funeral for a tree” at an old cathedral in NYC hosted by comedians and actors. It drew a crowd of thousands, generated millions in free press and helped shed light on the toilet paper waste that her company TUSHY can help solve. 

‍

She understands trends in marketing. She knows how to grab attention. So much so that she was banned by the NY   transit authority from running subway ads. Which led to a PR fight that she won…and in the end, got more press and attention than if they hadn’t been banned. 

‍

She’s also warm and kind and FUN. 

‍

She’s created multiple 9-Figure businesses and has garnered some pretty incredible recognition. She was named "Fast Company's Most Creative People", “Young Global Leader” by the World Economic Forum and INC's “Most Impressive Women Entrepreneurs”.

‍

She’s also the author of #1 best selling books Do Cool SH*T and Disrupt-HER.

‍

In this episode we unpack Miki’s wacky, impossible-to-forget and wildly successful marketing strategies and tactics.

‍

Here’s a look at what we cover:

‍

• How Miki was banned from advertising on the NYC subway and turned that into a huge PR win for her brand THINX
• How to use Accessible + Relatable language 
• How to create ads that are both effective and “fridge worthy”
• How iteration is perfection
• How to start with play to create great ideas

‍

Mentioned in This Episode:

Miki Agrawal

   - Website

   - Instagram

   - Link Tree to Resources

TUSHY

   - Website

   - Instagram

Thinx

   - Website

   - Instagram

Wild

   - Website

   - Instagram

“Do Cool Sh*t” by Miki Agrawal

“Disrupt-Her” by Miki Agrawal

“Zero To $100 Million” on Mindvalley‍

Cap Con 5
Ryan Daniel Moran‍

Toto‍

“Funeral for a Tree” by TUSHY video on YouTube‍

Butt Con by TUSHY

Transcript:

Brett:

Welcome to the Spicy Curry Podcast. We explore hot topics on eCommerce and digital marketing. We feel feature some of the brightest minds, with some of the SPT perspectives on what it takes to grow your business. Season one of this podcast is built on the old business adage that, what it really takes to succeed is three things. One: have something good to say. Two: say it well. And three: say it often.

Brett:

My guest in this episode is Miki Agrawal. She's the founder of TUSHY, but she's also the entrepreneur behind several other wildly successful companies. I don't know anyone better than Miki at the, have something good to say and say it well, aspects of growth. And so just a couple of accolades. Miki was named one of Fast Company's Most Creative People. She was also named by Inc Magazine as one of the Most Impressive Women Entrepreneurs. She was also my favorite speaker, and she's also one of the favorite speakers that most of the events that she attends.

Brett:

We're going to dive into some crazy wild stories from her entrepreneur journeys. We're going to learn why she was banned by the New York subway from running ads there, and how she actually overcame that and then ran some pretty powerful ads on the New York subway system. We're going to talk about how she creates events that are just, blow your mind. Like, they had a funeral for a tree, and there's a reason why they did that and got millions of dollars in free press. And she talks about how to craft things that are both artful and fridge worthy, but also effective. And so, I think you're going to absolutely love this interview. And so, lean in, buckle up and enjoy this interview with Miki Agrawal.

Brett:

Over 81% of consumers are opted into text message messages from their favorite brands, and that's where Attentive comes in. Meet Attentive, the company helping thousands of innovative brands connect with their customers through personalized text messaging. Attentive's text marketing platform lets you grow your subscriber list, interact with customers in real time through two-way conversations and drive the war revenue. Brands who use Attentive see $55 in sales for every $1 they spend. See what Attentive can do for you, at attentivemobile.com/omgcommerce. Attentive: drive sales with text message marketing.

Brett:

All right, well today I am abs absolutely thrilled that my guest is Miki Agrawal. Now, I was recently at an event, CapCon 5 in Austin, Texas. My good friend, Ryan Daniel Moran was the host. And there was a star-studded lineup of speakers. Amazing, blow your mind speakers. And I got to say, Miki was probably my favorite. And I hope that some of my other friends that were speaking don't hear this, because I don't want to hurt their feelings. It's just that Miki was amazing. And so, Miki is the founder of a number of really transformative businesses. Most recently, TUSHY. Also, THINX and WILD. She's also author of some amazing best-selling books. Do Cool Sh*t. Disrupt-Her, which I'm actually in the process, I've gone about halfway through it right now. And even though it has "her" in the title, Disrupt-Her, instead of disruptor, it's for dudes too. Right, Miki? And so, I'm actually getting a lot of value out of it. And so, we're going to talk about growth and having an amazing marketing message, and thinking differently and all kinds of great stuff. So Miki, welcome to the show, and how's it going?

Miki:

Yes. I'm so happy to be here with you. And just, the thing that I just can't, I'm just so like, I love is that you have eight children, and you're sitting at the table with 10 people every night for dinner. That just blows my mind.

Brett:

Yeah. The level of noise at the dinner table is sometimes crazy. And we do this thing called highs and lows, where everybody goes around and tells their high of the day. You have to have a high of the day, you don't have to have a low of the day if you don't want to, but it is required to have a high. And the noise level is crazy, but it's also super fun.

Miki:

I love that you do that. That's beautiful, that's amazing.

Brett:

Yeah. So, part of what attracted me to you, Miki, and why I was so thrilled to chat with you afterwards. Is one, you're a master marketer. And the way you craft messages and the way you get attention, it's mind blowing, which is awesome. But you're also like, you believe in strong women, right? And I've got six daughters and I just, I want them to conquer the world. That's probably a weird thing to say, but I want them to just do whatever they feel led and whatever they feel passionate about doing. And so, love the energy you bring and the inspiration you're bringing to young women as well.

Miki:

Six daughters. I mean, it's just, yeah. Like, I think about the food bill just for that dinner, just for those meals, just now. It's just [crosstalk 00:05:10].

Brett:

The food bill is crazy. So I'm happy to talk about that with anyone offline. Yeah. So, when you include groceries and eating out, it's a median household income. It's a lot of money, yeah. But grateful to be able to do it. I wouldn't have it any other way, but it is completely [crosstalk 00:05:28].

Miki:

I love it.

Brett:

So yeah, it's awesome. Well, let's talk about a few things. So if you would Miki, give people kind of just the quick background on you. Because we're going to dig into some of the specific messages that you use at TUSHY and things like that. But give people the background. Like, how did you become this, because not only were you my favorite speaker at CapCon, but I've seen, you were voted best speaker at Inc and Fast Company, and some of these other big events. Everybody loves what you have to say. So really, how did you get here?

Miki:

Well, I'm one of three children, and the interesting fun fact about the three of us is that we are all born within one year. So I have an identical twin sister. The third sister, who's 11 months older. So we're actually, we're Irish twins.

Brett:

Yeah, Irish twins and identical twins [crosstalk 00:06:18].

Miki:

Irish triplets.

Brett:

Okay.

Miki:

So we're twins, plus Irish triplets, yeah.

Brett:

It's insane.

Miki:

Yeah. And then we grew up to a Japanese mother and Indian father. So my mother's from Japan, speaks with a thick Japanese accent. My dad is from India, speaks with a very thick Indian accent.

Brett:

I'm doing the audio book of Disrupt-Her. And you do the Indian accent for your dad, an it's just amazing. You do such a good job, yeah.

Miki:

But yeah, his most, the thing they always say is, he says, when he meets somebody, he goes, "Very good vibes". Or, "Very bad vibes." And immediately, because yeah, he can sniff people out just by "their vibes".

Brett:

By "their vibes", okay, I love that.

Miki:

By "their vibes".

Brett:

That's awesome.

Miki:

Yeah. And I grew up in Montreal, Canada. In French Montreal, in the south shore of Montreal. In a town called [foreign language 00:07:12]. And it's like, I grew up in French, like literally, we were the token Asians in the most French neighborhood ever. And so, it was really beautiful to grow up in this true mosaic of cultures. Japan, India, French, American. And then of course, Canada attracts so many, I mean, every culture, every religion, and they're all celebrated. And so of course, growing up in a household of just diversity and then going to school with just all diverse kids, I think we just learned to question everything. And to look at things from different angles. To be like, oh, this is how the Indians look at it, this is how the Japanese look it, how the French look at it, and the Americans look at it, this is how the Canadians look at it.

Brett:

It forces a fresh perspective, rather than just everybody being the same.

Miki:

Totally. So it's a mosaic versus melting pot thinking. And I think that that mosaic thinking creates beautiful picture. When you think about a mosaic image, and it's just this, all these colors and all these textures, and all of the different historical context of things, creates a different frame than just a single pain. So I think I was very blessed in just being born where I was born, to be given the various perspectives. To not just be like, okay, this is the way it is. It's like, wait, is this, or should I question it? And is there a better way, or is there more thoughtful way? Or that kind of thing.

Brett:

When did you realize that, hey, I might be an entrepreneur? Or have you ever? Like, is that really a conscious thought? Like, when did you think, hey, I'm going to build companies? And not just companies, but wildly successful and disruptive companies.

Miki:

Yeah. I mean, I think I'm just genuinely unemployable. I think I'm just like, you're not my Indian father. That kind of vibes. Where like, anytime someone told me what to do, blood would rush to my head and I would just get really frustrated. I would, I don't know, get triggered or something. But no, I think I just always beat to my own drum. And I think because of this questioning, because of this philosophy of looking at things from different perspectives, I think I just always had different ideas that I wanted to put out in the world. That entrepreneurship, when it was introduced to me, I remember, I'll never forget. I met my very first entrepreneur, standing in line in New York City when I was 22 years old, at this Armani party.

Miki:

I was invited to my very first VIP door, or whatever. [crosstalk 00:09:47] And I was like, oh my God, I'm so cool. It was like, Armani. You know, whatever. Back when it was really cool to go to those things. And I remember standing in line, and in front of me was this gentleman who I'd met. And his name was Graham, and he's now since become one of my dearest friends. But I met him randomly, standing in line in front of me then. I was 22, and he was in his mid-thirties when I met him. And I was like, "oh". Like, "What are you up to?"

Miki:

And he's like, "I'm an entrepreneur."

Miki:

And I was like, "What do you mean?"

Miki:

And he is like, "I have my own business." And this is, by the way, in 2001, when entrepreneurship wasn't a school thing. Nobody was getting invested in, it wasn't a thing. I mean, Facebook wasn't even there until 2006.

Brett:

Now it's super trendy. Everybody wants to say entrepreneur, stamped that on their [crosstalk 00:10:33].

Miki:

Now, everyone. But back then, nobody. It was doctor, lawyer, investment banker, management consultant. Going to work for a company. Becoming a whatever at a company. Becoming a person who starts a business was just not even in the lexicon, in the zeitgeist of culture back then.

Miki:

And he was like, "I'm not in firm."

Miki:

I'm like, "What do you mean?"

Miki:

He's like, "I have my own company."

Miki:

I'm like, "Well, what do you do?"

Miki:

And he's like, "Well, I started a company called treehugger.com."

Miki:

And I was like, "Oh, that's cool."

Miki:

And he's like, "And I sold it." I think he sold it to Discovery Channel, whatever.

Miki:

And I was like, "Wow!" And then he, the next day, invited me to this brunch with a bunch of other entrepreneurs. And that's when it was my big ding, ding, ding moment. I can start my own company, I'm going to do that. And I think in life, we just get given these gifts of chance meetings. And either we kind of get opened by it or we close to it. And I was sort of just blasted open by the possibilities of that. And I think that's what really put me on the course of this new way of thinking and being, and then carrying forward.

Brett:

That's amazing. And I do want to, let's give kind of a brief overview of some of the companies. Just to give people some texture and some more context. So your mind was blown, and you're thinking, I could do my own thing. And then you have, and you've been wildly successful. Really at, essentially, everything. But can you give a quick rundown of the companies, and what they've done?

Miki:

Yeah. Well, I will first start by saying, one of the biggest stories that changed the course my life was when I was 22. After that time, 9/11 happened, and that was a huge turning point in my life.

Brett:

Yeah, because you were an investment banker, working down on Wall Street, right?

Miki:

Yes. The World Trade center was my subway stop every single morning. And it I was working at Deutsche Bank, in investment banking. I call it douche bank.

Brett:

Wow. Someone was asking for that, honestly, right? Deutche Bank, it's so close to douche, you're going to make the jokes, yeah.

Miki:

Know what I mean? Yeah. So yeah, when I was there, yeah, 9/11 happened. I was supposed to be there, and 2 World Trade Center was my subway stop every single morning. And I would walk upstairs to 2 World Trade Center, at the cafe there. And I would get tea with my girlfriend, who worked on the 100th floor. And then I would walk across the street to my office, directly across 2 World Trade Center. And then 9/11 happened, and it was the first day of my life, the only day of my life that I slept through my alarm clock.

Brett:

That is crazy and amazing.

Miki:

Yeah. And 700 people in my girlfriend's office died on that day. Two people in my office died. It was one of those, just like, you can't make this shit up. Like, this is not a real movie, that kind of level of unfathomableness.

Brett:

Unfathomable, yeah.

Miki:

Yeah. And so that single experience, again, it's those moments that I kind of really recognize as these turning points in my life. And that was a big turning point in my life. Where I was like, wow, I could die tomorrow. And when you're 22, you don't think about death. I feel like we start thinking about death after we have children, in a lot of ways. And I'm just always making sure I'm not going to die. Do you know? And I'm sure, with your eight children, I don't even know how [inaudible 00:13:50]. You know?

Brett:

Yeah.

Miki:

But death, it's just not a thing, when you're a kid, when you're 22, you're just sort of like, whatever.

Brett:

You're usually not thinking about it at all, yeah.

Miki:

Just not thinking at all. But then, because I had this near potential death experience, and people around me died, and I was just sort of like, wow, this is a real thing. And I really felt my mortality in that moment. And it was like, wow, I got to make every single day count.

Brett:

Got to do something, yeah. We're going to blink and we're going to be 70, right? And so, what are you going to fill your time with now? Yeah.

Miki:

That's right. And so yeah, for me, it was, I wrote down three things. The first was to play soccer professionally, the second was to make movies, and the third was to start a business. And that sort of set me on sort of a total path after 9/11,.I played soccer for the New York Magic, I worked in the film industry for a couple of years, and then I started my first business, which was in the restaurant space. And so, my first business was born out of a stomach ache. We know that famous thing, necessity is the mother of invention.

Brett:

Yes, so true.

Miki:

Yeah. So the first business was born out of a stomach ache, and I couldn't eat pizza anymore. It was my favorite comfort food, but I just couldn't eat anymore because it made me bloated and gassy, and just so gross feeling after I ate it. And it was full of bleached flour, processed cheese, sugar-filled sauces, processed toppings, it was all that. And so yeah, I basically started New York City's very first gluten free alternative pizza concept. And 17 and a half years later, we're still in business. Almost 18 years this year. In November, 18 years.

Brett:

Amazing. And it's called WILD, correct?

Miki:

Called WILD. Just go to @eatdrinkwild on Instagram. We have a couple locations in New York City, and one in Guatemala.

Brett:

And [crosstalk 00:15:42] for surviving the pandemic. I couldn't imagine owning a restaurant during the pandemic in New York City. That had to been just absolutely brutal. So grateful, yeah.

Miki:

It was nuts. My partner Walid is incredible, and he's such an ingenious person. He has lots of [inaudible 00:15:57]. Where actually what we did was, we opened up, on Seamless Web, three restaurants, out of our restaurants. So during the pandemic, not only did we have our regular standard fair, but we opened up two different restaurants, working out of our kitchen. So basically, we made tacos and we did burgers, or whatever, so that people could order from us multiple times a week.

Brett:

Oh, super smart, super [crosstalk 00:16:24].

Miki:

So, take away. And not just have our gluten-free pizza stuff every week, but they would have tacos one night, and different stuff. And so we just opened three different restaurants under the same roof during the pandemic. And then we got the outdoor cafe seating. And that, our business all came back. And it was actually incredible, because it felt like a bit of Europe being in New York, with all the outdoor cafes everywhere, and people walking around with the menu. It was just, it was very romantic, very beautiful. So the rest restaurants was the very first business I learned. I think I learned so much of the thesis around people and psychology in my restaurants, that then led to building Thinks and led to building TUSHY. Both now valued over nine figures, well over nine. And so I, what I learned at WILD was, when I stood outside my restaurant for almost seven years, handing out little pieces of pizza, just handing them out.

Brett:

That's how you grew the business, was samples, yeah.

Miki:

Exactly, yeah. And getting people to try. And I would also test. Like, if I said healthy pizza, people wouldn't come. But if I said, farmed fresh, healthy farm to table pizza, people would be like, oh, what does that mean?

Brett:

Yeah. Nobody wants healthy pizza. That sounds cardboard.

Miki:

Exactly.

Brett:

But farm to table pizza, interesting. And so, you were testing out those messages as people were walking by?

Miki:

AB testing, literally like email, subject heading.

Brett:

I love that.

Miki:

You know? And it was such, seven years of, it was genuinely like double PhD in human psychology and what led people to come closer to attract them, or to kind of move them back. And it was a really interesting thing. Just by standing, literally person by person, like hand to hand combat, just really getting to know people.

Brett:

Fascinating.

Miki:

And that experience led to this thesis, understanding, that again, built THINX and TUSHY. Which was having a best in class product. Like, if someone bit into it and they're like, Ugh.

Brett:

It doesn't matter, yeah.

Miki:

[crosstalk 00:18:30] my underwear. Like tight now, I'm wearing my period-proof underwear. It was so amazing because, I started my period today, I went to my bathroom. You're like, I have six daughters, don't worry about it.

Brett:

So, it does not bother me in the least. Like, yeah, this is a common conversation around my house, yeah.

Miki:

Yeah.

Brett:

Think of the podcast first, though. First to confess on the podcast, which I embrace this, I welcome, this is awesome.

Miki:

First of all, every single human being is here because of a women's period. So, you're welcome. You know?

Brett:

Yes.

Miki:

[crosstalk 00:18:59] Be more uncomfortable. Yeah. So today, this morning, I went to the bathroom and I was kind of like, there's a little bit of blood everywhere. And so I basically sat on my toilet, used my TUSHY bidet, washed myself clean, And then put my THINX underwear on. And I was just like, ah.

Brett:

You're like, this is amazing.

Miki:

I solved my own problem twice. Just now, in this moment. And that's when I was like, yeah, this is why these businesses are doing well. Because genuinely, they truly, truly, truly solve problems that we face every single day.

Brett:

Authentically solving the problem, not just identifying a problem and kind of addressing it just for a cash grab, but you authentically solve the problem.

Miki:

Needed it, yeah. Which is why in my book, Do Cool Sh*t, I talk about the three questions I always ask myself before starting any business. The first question is, what sucks in my world? That's to start with me, a problem in my world that sucks. And then question number two is, but does it suck for a lot of people? Because if it just sucks for me, then I'm kind of a diva or whatever, and who cares. [crosstalk 00:20:04].

Miki:

And then the third question, which I think is the most important. Which is, can I be passionate about this issue, cause, or community, for a really long time. We know the saying, it takes 10 years to be an overnight success. People don't want to sit in that discomfort for a really, really long time, and then they quit or decide to leave early, and they don't kind of get through it. I think about the entrepreneurs, I think about the musicians, I think about the actors, I think about all the people in my life who've made it. And they've made it because they've kind of grinded for a really long time. And they made through it, and they just stuck with their passion, they stuck with the thing they truly believed in. And so I think, yeah, what sucks in my world, has sucked for a lot of people. Can I be passionate about this issue? I think the passion piece is the most important. [crosstalk 00:20:49]

Brett:

It's super important. And this is something I think you may have shared at CapCon already with somebody else. But, tactics without the underlying passion are worthless or it's going to be short lived. Tactics only work for so long. Like, you've got to have that passion and that drive to push through all the messy and confusing and heartache and suffering that you have to go through as a business owner. And so yeah, the passion is super, super important.

Brett:

Now, why do you think you're so attracted to difficult things to sell? So we'll start with pizza first. So, selling healthy, gluten free pizza. When you started the business, gluten free wasn't trendy. Like, gluten free wasn't a selling point. It's not something you want to stick on all your labels. Because people were like, what are you even talking about?

Miki:

Yeah. And no one was talking about farm to table, no one was talking about [crosstalk 00:21:36], no one was talking about seasonal.

Brett:

None of that.

Miki:

This is in 2003-2004. I mean, it was still super nascent, all of those conversations, it was extremely different.

Brett:

Yeah. And when you started THINX, which is period-proof underwear, no one was really talking about periods. Or, not wanting to talk about it. And maybe some people don't want to talk about now. [crosstalk 00:21:50] But yeah, you just got to get over it. But then also TUSHY, a bidet. I still remember so many conversations just as stuff started to get in the news. People were like, "Oh, bidets are nasty."

Brett:

And I'm like, "How is it nasty to use water to clean yourself versus dry paper?" But anyway, you're choosing these categories that are difficult. Like, it's new to people or taboo to people. Why do you think [crosstalk 00:22:13]?

Miki:

Well, it's a culture shift that I'm interested in. I think from a creative perspective and as a creative challenge. Like, how do you change people's behavior, is the hardest change to make. And then how, how do you utilize innovation and creativity to do that? And so I think from a creative kind of person's perspective, it's like, wow, this is a really fun challenge to tackle. How do you get someone to change their behavior when it comes to food? When it comes to habits? Daily habits that they've been doing their whole lives, not even their whole lives, but for generations. To get them to try something new, and not only try it, but adopt it fully. I mean, that is why Toto hasn't made it to America yet. That is why the tampons and pads, which were invented by men, which is fine. But not that fine, cause they're made for women. So it's just, it's like, those are the most pervasive products in the world, because it's taboo. And so, how do we enter these conversations in a way that's artful? In a way that's accessible, and we're using the best in class product?

Miki:

And I think those, my thesis that I learned from the pizza, from the restaurants was that was that, was the three prong. Prong number one is best in class product. It has to be a best in class product. It has to be a big day that, when I clip to my toilet, it actually feels good, it looks good.

Brett:

It adds to the appearance of your bathroom. Like, it makes your bathroom feel better, cleaner.

Miki:

It makes it more upscale and cool. It makes people want to bring you to their bathroom when you're having a dinner party. You know like that? Or when you're wearing THINX, like when I'm wearing my underwear right now, I feel really sexy in them. I feel really taken care of in them. I know that I'm protect, I know that this product works. So, best in class product. The pizza, when I eat it, it tastes the most delicious pizza. It doesn't even taste gluten and free, it tastes the most delicious pizza you've ever tasted. So, best in class product, no question, that is baseline. Second prong, to really shift culture, is art. Using art to really challenge conversations.

Miki:

And I talked a little bit about this at CapCon. When I remember putting our first TUSHY ads up, or our first period ads up, out in the world, whether online or offline. People's first reaction were like, wow, that's so beautiful. And then their second reaction's, oh my God, they're talking about poop, they're talking about periods. Like, oh my [crosstalk 00:24:49]. But their very first reaction was leaning into the art and the beauty of that. And I think that, that opens up people's hearts and minds. Art just does that, and for everyone at every level, does that. It opens, art just gives people something to lean into. And I think when they're leaning into something, it makes them be curious. And so the first thing is, can we design from a lens of art? So, we hired all artists, we hired all creatives. I think art is such a beautiful lens to shift people's perspective. I mean, that's why people go to museums, people look at magazines, people look at nature as art. And a place to go and really open up our souls, open up our perspectives, change the way we look and see things.

Miki:

And I think that really lends itself to giving people the space to question their existing thinking. And I think that's all we need to do, is give them that space to question, and they can make the decision for themselves. And so then, that's the artfulness, the best in class innovation.

Miki:

And then the third part is the accessible, relatable language. I think we so often want to be so heady, and so clinical, and so technical, and so medical, and so academic, and sound really smart. And make everyone feel we've been and doing all this patent pending work and whatever. And it's just like, people don't care. They want to know, does it work? Does it make me feel good? Does it support me and does it support my life? Like, what's the point of this? Like, I don't care about your terminology.

Brett:

Patent pending.

Miki:

And like, I don't care about high sounding or smart. Like, whatever. And then, I tested all of that. That was all tested. I learned that, the more we speak from our space of truth, the more we speak from our place of that lit fire inside. We talked about that at CapCon as well. The more we speak from that real, true, authentic place, people respond. Because it's real, it's true. It's not coming from like, I wonder what they want me to say? And I'm just going to say it that way. That doesn't feel good, to receive that kind of inauthentic message. Like, imagine if you're receiving a text message from a best friend. And you can tell when they're being inauthentic or they're authentic. You can tell when your sister or brother is being authentic, you can tell when your wife or husband is being inauthentic or authentic.

Miki:

And so it's just that, can we write copy, can we text, can we write our messaging in the same way as we're texting our best friend? And I think that is such an important way to think about messaging to people. Because we're just being bombarded with advertisements, with so much people shouting at us. And we don't want that. We want authentic truth, we just want that juicy truth. And I think that truth is really what, that truth, coupled with art, coupled with the right beautiful aesthetic, the right innovation that you would want to use where, on a daily basis. That together, creates change, creates culture shift. And I've seen that time and time again. Across Wild, across THINX and across TUSHY. All three of them share the same philosophy of best in class product, artful aesthetic design across every touchpoint of our brand, and accessible, relatable language across every touchpoint of the brand.

Brett:

I love it so much. And really, when you combine all of that, plus you go back to the starting point from your first book, Do Cool Sh*t, it has to be addressing something that sucks for you and sucks for a lot of people. Right? So it's got to be that. And so then, when it's addressing a real issue, and then you've got the artful design and best in class, and it works. And you got the accessible, relatable language. All that comes together and it just works.

Brett:

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Brett:

What's so interesting and what was so powerful for me. And I remember talking to the guy that was sitting next to me at CapCon, and I made a couple comments about this. I've been in the ad world for a long time. So there's the brand building space of advertising, which is interesting. There's direct response, which I followed and studied for a long time. And I've worked in the infomercial space and stuff. But you have this ability to create stuff that looks beautiful. Like, you just want to look at it. It's an ad for a bidet, but you want to look at it. But, it also kind of makes you say, I'd like to try that. Like, I would like a clean butt too. I would to do...

Brett:

Because I think sometimes people, they go too far into the art. And it's abstract, and like, I don't even know what you're trying to say to me. Or I'm talking about patent pending, and all aloof, and who cares. So, how do you strike that balance and how do you create something that's fridge-worthy? As you'd say, artful and fridge worthy. But also, that connects and makes you say, I want to buy that underwear. Or, I want to buy that bidet. How do you do that?

Miki:

Yeah. Well so first, just to quickly unpack the word fridge-worthy, for those who don't know what that term means. Fridge-worthy simply means the idea that, you know when you walk into your home, and you go to your kitchen and you see your fridge? You go out, before, you go to grab a beer or whatever from your fridge. You see your fridge, and on your fridge are emblems of your life. You see pictures of your family members, of your eight children in your 10 person family.

Brett:

They take up the whole fridge, exactly.

Miki:

Yeah [inaudible 00:31:16] all over. You have invitations to weddings, you have little postcards from family members, you have little pictures of nieces and nephews. Or whatever it is, right?

Miki:

Hi, Stan.

Miki:

And my challenge to my team has always been, can you create something so beautiful, so artful and so personal, that it can make the small real estate on your fridge? That it can really make that small personal space on your fridge, that it can take up that space. That you can make something for TUSHY or THINX so beautiful, something so cool, that it can live in your home in some way. And so we design from that lens. And from that lens that, again, hits you personally and makes you feel something.

Brett:

It does cause you to shift and think differently. Now it's not just about, well, I'm going to choose blue. Like, you're thinking about everything differently.

Miki:

Yeah. Like, what is it that's going to make, how does it make me feel? And that's a different lens to creating.

Brett:

For sure.

Miki:

Yeah.

Brett:

So then, how do you blend fridge-worthy then with some true sales power, or some power to make people say, I want to buy this.

Miki:

So I always say to my team, in the art of it, I still need to know. I mean, it depends. Like you said, there's top of funnel stuff, where you want to create intrigue and mystery. And that kind of stuff is like, if you look at our TUSHY Bellagio spot that we just shot. I just shot this ad, where I finally figured out, where my friend is this genius rigging person. And he rigged 10 toilets with bidets on them, with our TUSHY Ace bidets on them. That we can play them like a piano.

Brett:

Like the Bellagio fountains?

Miki:

Bellagio fountain.

Brett:

I got to see that, then.

Miki:

I'll share, I'll text with you right after this. It's crazy. And so basically, it plays. So we made this like, (Beethoven's 5th). And just this wildly weird thing. And we don't show you very much about it, but it just says at the tagline at the end. Which makes you mysterious and makes you want to click and see what the hell this is. So there's that mystery and intrigue, which hooks you into wanting to know more.

Brett:

It's a curiosity play, yeah.

Miki:

Pure curiosity play, pure top funnel. Just stuffing people in. And then we spend the rest of the time, really converting them to the bottom, bringing them down the funnel. Educating them on the product, the value propositions and all of that. So that's the one strategy.

Miki:

The other strategy for top of funnel. I always think about prospecting. I always think about, how do you get people to both fall in love with our brand, with our ethos, with our playfulness, with our just [foreign language 00:33:56], with our love of life? They can feel it in this thing, but they're also understanding, what is the product? How does it work? Why do I need it? So it really answers those questions. And maybe like, why do I need it?

Miki:

Like, we just shot another commercial with the singing toilets, with the kind of the playing toilets. Where, it's this very Wes Anderson, weird thing. Where it's like, five people laying, they stick their heads in the toilets at once. And they're laying on these, which kind of represents the heated seat. And then all of a sudden, we start spraying. Like, I start kind of smushing ice cream on this guy's face. And then, this one woman takes a chocolate cake and squishes it in her white glove. And then she smacks it on the ass of white pants on this guy. So it kind of represents all taking a shit, basically, the chocolate looks like shit. And then the sprays go off, and then we get clean. And it's this debaucherous clean thing. And then we press the blow dryer, and then we're getting blow dried. So you're seeing the value, of how it works. Like, you're seeing, we press the remote, and then the nozzles go off and it starts spraying. It's clean. And then you press the dry, then it just blow dries it. So you see slow-mo, the hair blow dried. We walk out frame. So you're kind of, you're getting the idea of what this thing is. But you're still intrigued, tickled. You feel good vibes, you feel "very good vibes". You know?

Brett:

You're probably laughing. You're probably like, I can't believe I'm watching this. But it's also product demonstration in a really fun and creative and crazy way, which is super cool.

Miki:

Yes. And so, it's a lot of things. And I always look at, what are our best performing ads? Our best performing ads are the edutaining ones. Ones that are hilarious, and the ones that educate. Tells you, why you need it, how it works and how to use it.

Brett:

Yeah, totally makes sense.

Miki:

You know? But in a really simple, easy way. And so, yeah, it is an art and science, and they have to go hand in hand. And, creative and marketing always do sometimes have this natural tension, but I think it's a good tension if you have the right leadership.

Brett:

It's a healthy tension.

Miki:

A healthy tension, yeah.

Brett:

Love it. So one thing you talk about a lot, and I remember you showing these examples. That, you'll use actual statements from real customers. And you also talk about campfire stories, sharing campfires stories as a team or whatever, to kind of stir up creativity. So, can you talk about that a little bit? Like, how do you use customer statements in your ads? And then, what about campfire stories?

Miki:

Yeah. So, I always think like, our best advocates are our customers, our users, who love our products. It just, it makes so much sense. And so many times, companies are scared to, they don't want to bother their customers. But if customers love it, and you're asking them, hey, just fill in the blank. THINX is blank. Or, TUSHY.

Brett:

This is my favorite, yeah. Just fill in the blank. TUSHY is, fill in the blank.

Miki:

Fill in the blank. TUSHY is, blank. Just fill in the blank. And within 24 hours, we got 1000 responses. For things specifically, it was, THINX is Mary Poppins in my pants. THINX is strength, freedom and dignity for all women. TUSHY is...

Brett:

One of them was, eye candy butt bliss. I wrote it down. I got the thing.

Miki:

Yeah, eye candy butt bliss. It's like, TUSHY: you could eat off my butt hole. You know? And just like, my rusty starfish has never been so clean. Stuff like that, where it's crazy, hilarious, random.

Brett:

Especially when you know that it was a real customer that said it. It's like, okay, that's super fun. And I'm now totally entertained by reading this.

Miki:

Yeah, by real. And we always say, name of the customer, from a real pooping human. And so, we now use these campaigns, as actual campaigns and taglines for our company. Because our customers know what's best. And we don't have to oftentimes scratch our heads to ask ourselves, what creativity can we use? We can literally just reach out to our customer base, and they'll give us, and they're delighted in giving it to us. And if they see it in the world, they'll be like, oh my God, that's my line. And they now feel even more connected.

Brett:

And then they totally will put that on the fridge. They will totally put that piece, and share with everyone they know.

Miki:

And they'll share it with all their friends, tell everyone they know. And it engages people, attracts them. The same thing with PR. I talk about that a lot. Like, we do a ton of inbound marketing, inbound PR. And we've gone viral so many different times. And it's because, again, studying the psychology of people. Like, how do you create intrigue? How do you create mystery? Where, they want to complete the storyline. So often, people are like, send press releases, and hope that the press will write about them. But it just never works. It piles up on people's desks. Versus, you send these mysterious boxes where you have to assemble this thing. Or like, unscramble a riddle. So recently, we just launched our TUSHY Ace, part of our electric bidet seat with the most beautiful remote in the world.

Brett:

It's the heated seat, right? Which by the way, if you've never experienced a heated toilet seat, it is pretty magical, it really is.

Miki:

Heated seat, warm water, blow dries your butt. Best blow dryer on the market. It's not like where you have to still use toilet paper, because this is a nice strong blow dryer. And it looks an Apple product. It's the most gorgeous remote. Our design, it's just, it's the most beautiful product. And so, we were launching this. And our team, we were like, okay, we are going to create mystery around this product. And so, we put together these deck of cards. And these deck of cards that we made, we made actual TUSHY deck of cards, designed by hand, by my designers. And we had this instruction sheet for the press. And we said, pull out all the royal flushes.

Brett:

Nice. Royal flushes.

Miki:

[crosstalk 00:40:03] And so, they'd pull out the royal flushes. And they had to unscramble the royal flushes, based on the riddles that they were given. Like, for the diamond royal flushes, this is the riddle. And you had to unscramble it based on the different words. The letters that appeared on the 10, jack, queen, king, ace. There was a letter hidden, that then unscrambled based on the riddle. So then, it made the press have to work hard to actually unscramble and send the responses. And then once they get the TUSHY Ace product and install it, they're going to feel they've accomplished something. Like, they actually, they feel so much better.

Brett:

And they're so engaged, and you've delighted them.

Miki:

They're so engaged.

Brett:

You've just made their day in so many ways.

Miki:

Instead of just sending them a product, review it. You're almost like, dance monkey, dance. Versus like, let me bring you into this fun, mysterious story with us. And we're going to be surprised and delighted together. And we're going this extra mile for you, to make you just regale in the delight. And I think that, that is what people want in life. They want to be just surprised and delighted. They want to be regaled. And like, "Oh!". And giggle. They want their heart to flutter.

Brett:

They want magic, they want mystery, they want excitement, they want to be kind of caught up in something. Right? Not just reading.

Miki:

Who doesn't want to be caught up in this ,"oh', moment. And it feels so good and it just enlivens our being.

Brett:

So, how did that work out? How was the press' reaction to that?

Miki:

Well I mean, this one, we just sent them out actually last week, so we're still underway. But guess what? The fact that we had almost, I think it was like 20 press asked for these cards. Because first, we were like, we're going to send you a mysterious package. Are you willing to take it? We need your home address, because we're COVID times. And so we had, almost 20 press gave us their home addresses, to send them the mystery packages. And so that already means that they're hooked. And we did this before, for THINX. Where we had people go and smash bricks, and they had to open the bricks and look for these invitations. And 80 people showed up to our event, after they smashed the THINX. 80 press RSVPed. We had another event, where we poked a hold in eggs, and put these mystery scrolls in them. And then all 20 press showed up to our event, because they wanted to crack open the egg and look at the scroll. And we said, you can't open them until you come to the event.

Miki:

So it's just, creating the mystery, creating the intrigue. It's human nature that, when they start something, they want to finish it. They don't like incomplete story lines, they like to complete story lines. And when there's an incompletion, there's still this intrigue, this mystery that keeps you wanting more. And so, we're in that storyline right now, with the TUSHY Ace, and I'll let you know how it goes, but I feel very confident.

Brett:

Yeah. That idea of opening and closing loops. Once a loop is open, people want to close and they want to figure out. They want to solve the mystery. That's why cliffhangers work, and all of those things.

Miki:

And in relationship and romance. When you're romancing, you're seducing. It's the same kind of storyline. It's so much fun, that game.

Brett:

Yeah. And I know you've got to go, so I've got two quick things. But I also want to mention, just briefly. You talked about two stories, two events. Because you're the master of doing these just crazy, off the wall events, that also work. So, one was ButtCon, and one was the Funeral for a Tree, for TUSHY. Are those outlined in one of your books? Because even if nothing else...

Miki:

Not yet.

Brett:

They're not? Oh, dang it. Okay.

Miki:

Not yet, but my next, maybe. I might have a Do Cool Sh*t sequel, and talk about TUSHY in that.

Brett:

We'll highlight that, or I'll find the story, that I can put. Anyway, I'll let the audience [crosstalk 00:43:41].

Miki:

I'm happy to share them really quick. I can share them over the next couple minutes, no problem.

Brett:

Okay, just do it quickly over the next two minutes, yeah.

Miki:

Sure, yeah. So again, it's all about creating unorthodox events, unorthodox gatherings. That make people go, "Huh? What are you talking about? What is this?" So we held two kind of events before COVID happened. And we're going to now resume them once COVID's now finally, hopefully at bay. But one of them was called A Funeral for a Tree. And the other one was called ButtCon. The Funeral for a Tree is, we actually held a real funeral for a dead tree at the Judson Memorial Church, which is the biggest memorial church in all of New York City. In Washington square park. We had a 400 seat capacity, and we sold out. And we had a 25 part choir. We had Matthew Morrison, the actor, is one of our dear friends, playing the reverend. We had his wife, Renee, who is one of my best friends as well, who played Maple, the wife of the dead tree. It was just the most wild experience. And the people who came...

Brett:

People were reading eulogies. Which, I got to hear one. It was hilarious. Just super funny and well done.

Miki:

I mean, it was just comedy. It was sad, it was beautiful, it was inspiring. It was all of the above, and people left so inspired to save trees. [crosstalk 00:45:14] And to do it by buying TUSHY, by doing all kinds. You know? But it wasn't a marketing...

Brett:

It didn't feel like a sales pitch. It didn't feel a, "Hey, here's your coupon for TUSHY." As you walk out the doors.

Miki:

For one second. It didn't feel like. It just felt TUSHY opened my eyes to these important things. [crosstalk 00:45:31].

Brett:

We are killing a lot of trees because of toilet paper, and here's how we can help solve that.

Miki:

That's right. 50 million trees are cut down every single year because of toilet paper consumption. 30 million cases of urinary tract infections, hemorrhoids. All these health hygiene issues, not to mention planetary issues. All these things could be alleviated by just using a bidet, using TUSHY, under $100 product. You know? But we didn't even say any of that stuff at our Funeral for a Tree event. That was, we just put on this amazing event, brought to you by TUSHY. And people just were like, this was the most inspiring theatrical event I've ever been to.

Brett:

You get an insane press on it.

Miki:

[crosstalk 00:46:07] Amazing press. And same thing with ButtCon. We held this event called ButtCon, which was all things butt-related. We had butt lift surgeons, we had anal reconstructive surgeons, we had anal porn stars, we had cake sitters who makes money on sitting on cakes as a living. We did a class on making money on your ass. I mean, just crazy things. Like, we had Kim Kardashian's physical butt trainer, came and showed us how to do butt exercise. We had twerking champions doing the twerk, teaching people how to twerk. Just name. We had gut doctor, Dr. Mark Hyman, who is one of my dearest friends. And he did a whole gut and butt session on how poo the right poops, and what the right poops look like. We had, again, every walk of life in the realm that touched the butt, or gut, or the poop space was there. And we had 49 press, of the top, top, top, top, top press came to the event. Because they were like, what the hell is ButtCon? We had to see for ourselves.

Brett:

They said, "What are you doing?"

Miki:

What are you doing here?

Brett:

And the press you got from both those events, to pay for that kind of exposure would be almost impossible. But you got it because you did some crazy stuff.

Miki:

Yeah. It was truly, again, another reminder that just, what you put in. When you put in, like, if you build it, they will come. And you have to build spectacles. Again, things that surprise and delight. Things that make people go, I need to go and see what this is about. And that's the most important thing.

Brett:

I love that, I love it. So I know, you've got to go. So just kind of in closing. If people are listening to this and they're like, I need more Miki Agrawal in my life. And so, where can they, one, go to find your books? But also, just experience your marketing. Because hopefully, this has opened your eyes a little bit. Like, you need to pay attention to what Miki is doing from a marketing standpoint, you're going to learn a lot. So, how can people get more Miki in their life?

Miki:

Yes. Well first, you can also always come check me out on Instagram where I answer most people's questions pretty directly. Like, people have questions, I'm pretty good about responding. So Instagram, just @mikiagrawal. You can also go to mikiagrawal.com. If you subscribe to my mikiagrawal.com page, you'll actually get one disruptive move every week to do for yourself and for your business. So it's 52 disruptive moves. So that's just on mikiagrawal.com. And of course go to helloTUSHY.com. Check it out, get a TUSHY bidet. It's the best gift of all time. Holidays, it's the gift. It's just the best gift you can do for yourself. I mean, period, end of story. From a health high hygiene, confidence, feeling sexy, feeling good perspective. And then you can also, oh, if you want to learn about the strategies. I mean, definitely, Do Cool Sh*t, Disrupt-Her, check out my books. But then, if you want to actually learn about all of my tactics, of all of my strategy and building my companies from zero to $100 million plus, I built an actual course called Zero to a $100 million on Mindvalley.

Brett:

Mindvalley, I'll link to that in the show notes.

Miki:

If you go to my link in bio on my Instagram, I link to a free masterclass, a one hour masterclass which goes into a lot of these campaigns. But then, it also links to the quest, the Mindvalley quest, Zero to a $100 million. So, definitely check it.

Brett:

Beautiful. Got to check it out. I got to check that out. I got to watch that. And I'm going through Disrupt-Her right now. I absolutely love it, I highly recommend it. I like the audio version. I'm an auditory learner. And you narrate the books, so I get to listen to more Miki as I'm driving around. So that's been awesome as well. So Miki, this has been fantastic. Thank you so much for doing this. I've been inspired, and got some new ideas cooking around in my head. I know other people have too. So, really, really appreciate it.

Miki:

Yay. I was happy to be here.

Brett:

Awesome, thank you so much. And as always, thank you for tuning in. We'd love to hear from you. What do you think about the show? What do you want to hear more of? Less of? Let us know. And until next time, thank you for listening.

Brett:

Are you a D2C brand spending over six figures a month on paid media? If so, then listen up. My agency, OMG Commerce, and I have worked with some of the top eCommerce brands over the years. Including Boom, Native, Groove, Monan, Organifi and dozens more. And every year, we audit hundreds of Google, YouTube and Amazon ad accounts. And we always find either significant opportunities for growth, or wasted ad spend to cut, or both. For example, are you missing YouTube ads? Whatever you're spending on top of funnel Facebook, you should be able to spend 30 to 50% of that or more on YouTube, with similar returns. So if you're spending 300,000 to 400,000 a month on Facebook, you should be able to easily spend a 100,000 to 150,000 or more on YouTube. Visit omgcommerce.com to request a free strategy session, or visit our resource page and get some of our free guides loaded with some of best strategies for YouTube Ads, Google Shopping, Amazon DSP and more. Check it all out at omgcommerce.com.

‍

Nick Shackelford was a pro soccer player for the LA Galaxy turned online marketing super star. You’ve probably seen him featured in FOUNDR magazine or speaking on stage of the wildly successful event he co-founded - Geek Out. 

‍

I first met him when we both spoke at Ezra Firestone’s event in Denver several years ago and I’ve been a fan ever since. Nick is a master of media buying. He knows how to build agencies. And he has a really fresh take on creatives. We go deep into his creative process in this episode. Here’s a look at what we cover:

‍

• How a lack of diversity in your ads could be killing your results.
• Nick’s agency’s creative process. This is pure GOLD.
• How to use Amazon reviews to jump start your creative process - This strategy is so simple, so effective, you’ll kick yourself for not having used it.
• How a tool called Monkey Learn can help you key in on the right words and hooks to use with your audience.
• Why audience targeting is nearly dead and creative is KING.
• How Nick uses Creative Strategist and why you should consider one too.
• How to work with the algorithm rather than against it.

‍

Mentioned in This Episode:

‍

Nick Shackelford

   - LinkedIn

   - Twitter

Geek Out
   - Website

   - Events

Konstant Kreative‍

Structured Agency

Design Pickle‍

No Limit Creatives‍

Penji‍

Video Husky‍

Chubbies‍

Facebook Dynamic Creative‍

Josh Durham‍

Groove Life‍

Aligned Growth Management‍

Necklet‍

Monkey Learn Word Cloud‍

Luca + Danni‍

Northbeam‍

Triple Whale‍

James Van Elswyk

Transcript:

Brett:

Welcome to the Spicy Curry Podcast, where we explore hot takes in e-commerce and digital marketing. We feature some of the brightest guests with the spiciest perspectives on how to grow your business online.

Brett:

In this episode, we talk about the creative process that will supercharge your Facebook and Instagram ads. My guest is Nick Shackelford. You've probably seen Nick on stage at one of your favorite e-commerce events, or you've seen him featured in Foundr Magazine or in a host of other places online. More about Nick in just a minute. In this episode, we talk about the fact that audience marketing is nearly dead and why creative is almost all that matters. We talk about how Nick uses creative strategists and how you should consider using one too. We talk about how Nick use Amazon reviews to kickstart the creative process. This approach is so simple, so effective, so powerful, you'll kick yourself for not having used it before. We'll also talk about a tool that you can use to choose the right words and the right hooks for your ads. Plus, we'll unpack Nick's entire creative strategy. So lean in, buckle up, and please enjoy this interview with Nick Shackelford.

Brett:

The Spicy Curry Podcast is brought to you by OMG Commerce, attentive, One Click Upsell, Zipify Pages, and Payability.

Brett:

Well, I am absolutely geeking out about this episode and this guest. That was a little bit of a pun, you'll find out more about that in a minute. But, longtime friend of mine, absolute rockstar in the space. If you're paying attention to digital marketing at all, you've probably heard of this guy or seen this guy or you've heard the name. And so, today I'm absolutely thrilled to have Nick Shackelford, aka The Shack, on the podcast. And we're going to dive deep into really several things related to marketing. And if you've been listening to this season one of the Spicy Curry Podcast, we're really talking about three things, right? Have something good to say, say it well, say it often. Regardless of what changes in the online world, you've got to do those things. And so we're going to talk about what's working now, what's not working now, how to crush it like Shack does.

Brett:

And so a couple of interesting things about Shack for those that may not know, he was a professional soccer player for the LA Galaxy, and then decided, "You know what? I want my field to be online marketing rather than running around the soccer field." And so we actually met. We met at Ezra Firestones event, right, Shack? We both spoke at Ezra Firestone's event. I don't remember where that was or when that was. Was it maybe Denver, I don't know, three or four years ago?

Nick:

It was. It was Colorado.

Brett:

Yeah. Yeah. And I just remembered two things about you. One, you had an amazing strategy for influencer marketing on Facebook, two, you were rocking a killer hoodie, and three, you just had this swagger about you. And then as I've known you over the years, you always have a killer hoodie on. So what is the secret to getting great hoodies?

Nick:

Oh man, I actually am wearing one of them right now. This is an appropriate hoodie when you're just working at home 24/7. So this is [inaudible 00:03:41], which is another e-commerce brand that if you guys are in the space, they definitely do some interesting things. You should definitely talk to Davies. He's a smart, smart guy as well.

Brett:

Would love that intro, let's talk to him. You look like you're ready for a mountain expedition and/or you're ready just to chill at home and be super cozy.

Nick:

I like options, so the fact that I'm able to do both at a will is what I want to play with. But no, what you do, it's been fun to watch the growth of this, especially with the people that are doing it for a long time, because sticking with your theme of say it often, those that are usually saying it often are able to continue to be around because they've been preaching the same thing consistently. It might change a little bit, which trust me, I think 2022 so far, I mean, we're only 19 days into it. But yeah, there are a lot of things that have changed over the times, but we haven't stopped saying the same things, right?

Nick:

We talked about this at GeekOut. You came and you were like, "Hey, this is the consistent stuff that you have to do." And it's shocking... Maybe it isn't shocking, maybe it isn't. People forget what they have to continually do, and so reminding them over and over and over, they just might not be ready to hear it. So I always say, you always start with the basis so everybody's at the same page, but then you can get really to the nitty-gritty stuff, which you do so well, so I see you, brother, on this.

Brett:

Love it, man. Love it. So let's do this, we're going to dive into all the stuff you're doing right now on Facebook and Instagram and other platforms and what your creative genius is. And got an episode in season one here with Justin Brooke, my man, talking GDN, but I know I've seen him publicly say, "If you're not paying attention to Nick Shackelford, you're missing out, because Nick or The Shack knows what he's talking about." So tell me about GeekOut, or tell the audience. I know about GeekOut. I spoke at the last one in LA, and it was fantastic. I had so much fun, so much fun connecting with your group, with your audience. I could really nerd out or geek out. But tell me about that event and kind of what's ahead for this year.

Nick:

I absolutely will. Yeah, I was very fortunate you made it out there. GeekOut started five years ago now, and it started with the fact that I couldn't go to my partner and tell her, "Oh, babe, look at these campaigns. Oh my gosh, isn't this great?" Roll her eyes, she just didn't really care as much. And then [inaudible 00:06:04] James, he felt the same way. So we were geeking and nerding on all these things. We have a different vibe about ourselves, and what I mean... I literally have to explain this. We have the ability to deliver content and aggregate a room of people that want to learn, make money, and continue to build their business, but still feel open to talk about, "Hey, my employee just sued me," or "I'm going through this issue with my partner," or "I'm going...." these really intimate things that you don't feel comfortable expressing unless you're in a room that's safe and comfortable.

Nick:

And it just started happening organically, because I'm that way, right? I'm okay with things being very public. There's a couple things that I don't want to have super public, but I'm pretty much 99% out there on every channel because I do believe building in public builds relation, and there was no better way for us to do this except doing it in person. So this started, again, five years ago, and I remember we did it in Las Vegas literally on a couch. We thought we were renting a mansion, of course. Like all things in Vegas, you thought it was, and we figured what it really was. We got there, and I remember there was a putt-putt. One of the selling propositions on Airbnb was, "Oh, use our little putting green, and it was amazing." It was two holes, and I'm like, "Oh my God, what are we're going to do?"

Nick:

So we had a good run, but the thing that we never lacked was the quality of content. And so we've ran it back. We've done Tel Aviv. We've done Barcelona. We've done LA, Miami, New York, and we're gearing up for this year. We will be the only event that will do, I think, double digits of events this year. We're planning for 10. I think we'll probably, knock on wood because of where the world is currently at, get about six. And the first one starts in Dubai right before Affiliate World, and then we'll bring it back in for San Diego and Miami. Brett, I think I told you this before, it's the one business that I have that makes me the least amount of money but brings me the most amount of happiness, because you truly get a seed connection, and it's something that we've really, really gotten away from in the world for the various reasons that all of us are experiencing together, but it's just become way more important to me.

Brett:

Yeah, it was just phenomenal. I can't wait. I've been talking to my team about it. I've been bugging you for dates, because I'm blocking these out. I'm coming to speak at as many of these as I can or attend those that I can't speak at. It was just an amazing place to be, other like-minded, super smart marketers. I know you've had this experience. You were talking about talking to your partner. You can't really talk about ROAS. She doesn't care, right? I can't talk about ROAS to my wife. She glazes over. But you become acutely aware of how many acronyms we use in this space, right? ROAS, LTV, AOV, CLV. It's never ending, but this is your people. You can geek out about any of those things, but you can also talk about deeper stuff, people stuff, preparing for exits, buying companies. It's an awesome group, testament to you and to James, but just high level people, man. I would put it on the short list. If you could only attend a couple events this year, make sure one of them-

Nick:

[inaudible 00:09:22].

Brett:

... is GeekOut. I can edit this out later if I need to. Is there a rebrand coming too? Is it going to be GeekOut, is going to be something else? Or should we talk about that?

Nick:

Yeah, absolutely, we should. It's going to be called a GeekUp for two reasons. One, we have to level up, and so adding in that geek element is something that we still want to keep. And two, there was already a trademark called GeekOut Events. So as much of the branding I want you guys to be like, "Oh wow, that's so clever," I'm like, "Well, we kind of got into a situation."

Brett:

We're geeking out and leveling up. We're geeking up. This is amazing. Yeah, that's [inaudible 00:09:58]. Well, its going to be... I don't care what you call it, but GeekUp is super cool too. So if you attend only a few events, make sure one of them is GeekUp. And so I'll link to everything in the show notes. You can google it and check it out and stuff like that too. So fantastic, man. Any other notes on the event itself?

Nick:

Well, okay, so the segue into what I'm focused on a lot right now outside of the three businesses is we started GeekUp because it was about sharing and learning and getting that feedback of what's happening, and that led me to Konstant Kreative. We have almost our first year under our belts, and it's purely content because... Dude, you're a YouTube guy. You do good YouTubes. We don't do YouTubes, but we do a lot of Facebook, and we do a lot of Instagram, and we do a lot of TikTok, and we do a lot of Snapchat. And I used to be such a big teacher and proponent of strategies and hacks and tactics. I'll raise my hand here, I was one of the biggest people talking about various hacks and strategies 2017, '18, '19. 2020, I got a little quieter. 2020, I got real quiet. In 2022, I'm on that same quiet band because it just isn't as sustainable as it once was. I don't want to say we did this on purpose, but I like to think I did or had a feeling, my spider senses, for the new Marvel movie, which is fantastic, is tingling, and I was like, "Dude-

Brett:

That is a good movie. And actually, quick side note, the new, or new-ish, depending on when you're listening to this, Spiderman movie got us into the whole Marvel series. We watched Spiderman No Way Home, and then now we're going back to the beginning. We're, I think, three movies into the... It's like 30 movies. If you do chronologically through the Marvel series, it's nuts, but my family and I, we're going through it all, so it's super fun.

Nick:

Oh my God, I am not a movie person, but I will watch though. It's culture. It's so culture. Okay. What put us into this position was understanding that content was never going to leave us, and so we put so much time and effort into building. We weren't first to do it. There's Design Pickle. There's No Limit Creatives. There's Penjee! There's Video Husky. There's so many other people that do this content on demand thing, but we had to do it ourselves, because arguably, I've never gone through a pandemic. I'm 31 years old. I didn't know what would happen if I couldn't understand how much revenue was being driven by each one of our employees across our entire company because I didn't know what I needed to go potentially [inaudible 00:12:26] so I didn't know what loans I needed to go get.

Nick:

I needed to know that I could do a dollar earned or average per each one of our employees contributing to the bottom line. Sometimes in just an agency space or sometimes in business space, you have admins or project managers that might not directly tie to bottom line. We know they impact it, but we don't really know what they drive. Designers are another one. Editors are another one. Copywriters are another one. Unless you're in this performance tower, you know each email or each thing you write, you get dollars back on. If you aren't structured that way, you're like, "Dude, I don't really know how much money's coming in from these people." So we actually built this service and fed it to ourselves. And I think the term is dog feeding ourselves.

Brett:

Yeah, so this is a Google term. So it's called eating your own dog food. They borrowed it from Purina or Puppy Chow or something like that, where literally that company, they would eat their own dog food. It's a metaphor for using your own stuff, right?

Nick:

Okay.

Brett:

You believe in your product so much, you use it. Yeah.

Nick:

Oh, so thank you. I actually didn't know where that was coming from, and I'm glad you [inaudible 00:13:29]. We built it for ourselves because content... If you're like, "Nick, what are you about right now?" it's content, and it's volume of content at a cost effective rate. Listen, before the pandemic hit, a lot of people didn't really open up their mind to the quality of support, quality of company building that you can do offshore. I'm not saying outsource. This is a complete different thing. Outsource to offshore is completely different. Offshore are full-time your employees, your people, your values, your systems, your processes. Outsource is white labeling. You don't know what's going on. They're delivering you something, you're going to wrap in a bow, you're going to deliver. So I'm going to be very clear on that.

Nick:

This was something that when we started to understand quality of talent allowed us on the agency side to operate at 35, 40, 55% margin at times on various months, you can do the same exact thing on a content iteration, say. The only issue that a lot of people don't get right when they're like, "Hey, I need a performance editor," or "I need a performance creative person," it's because they themselves don't know what they want. Here's why. There's a subjectivity in this that everybody can't get away from in the romanticism toward a brand they own or towards the content that's being shot. I'm sure you experience this, or do you?

Brett:

Absolutely. Totally. Yeah, yeah. Sometimes we are our own biggest enemy, or often the brand owner is their biggest enemy in terms of getting creatives that work, creatives that actually connect and compel and move people to take action. Yeah, sometimes we're romantic about what we think that structure should be or what we think that message should be rather than focusing on... Let's not do something that's completely off brand, of course, but let's do what works. And sometimes you have the brand, or sometimes the agency gets in the way of that.

Nick:

It's so true because we're hired to do two things. Now, if you're hiring a branding agency or hiring a shop that needs to be really up here and be oh, really meta on things, God bless. I'm not in the space to where I can afford to create something that doesn't drive revenue. You're in the same boat. We have to validate the costs that we have for a lot of our partners. And so when you have this subjective idea of what happens, and I'll get into what testing, what we're doing now, what 2022, at least the bets that I'm making in this first quarter on how we're building out our testing and how we're building out our, at least our internal content structure. And actually, I'll fucking go into all the things, because I think the more that this information gets out there, it might actually spark some interest on your side, and you might have some interesting feedback for me too, so-

Brett:

Totally, totally. We're going to talk about one thing really quickly, and then I want to dive into the specifics.

Nick:

Okay.

Brett:

Actually, two things really quickly. What'd you say the name of the company was, the content company?

Nick:

Oh, Konstant Kreatives. Sorry.

Brett:

Konstant Kreatives. Awesome. We'll link to that in the show notes as well. But I could not agree with you more, right? I think in fact, back when we first met in Denver at Ezra's event, a lot of people were talking about hacks and here's little tricks and tips and things you can do to make Facebook and YouTube and all that work. And certainly, there's always going to be some hacks, but success is way more, way more about having great creatives, sticking to the fundamentals, and just being relentless, relentless on testing, relentless on looking for new angles, and then really just being consistent in what you're doing and doubling down on what's working. And so love that you're doing that. I got to learn more about your company there too so I can refer some people to you. But yeah, so let's dive in there. What is your process then for finding the right angle and getting that... Because you talk about volume of creatives too, right? You got to be testing pretty frequently, especially on Facebook. Not as much on YouTube, but especially on Facebook and Instagram. What's your process like?

Nick:

This is something that we think is an ongoing debate, kind of ongoing analysis. Let's think of it this way, you used to go to optimize campaigns at an ad level or an ad set level or even the structure of the campaign level, and we're having to do a lot of this before we even get to the campaign launch. What I mean by this is, before the conversation of cancel culture or before the conversation of inclusion really was being had, a lot of the ads that we saw were generally white males, white females across every brand, across every company, thin, thinnish, and you didn't really think about, "What if [crosstalk 00:17:49]

Brett:

Which is really just silly. But you're right, that's just the way it was. Yes, it was crazy.

Nick:

Yeah, it was silly. Listen, I'm not ignorant to who I am and what I am, but when you look at brands that are buying this, brands don't have this data. You can't run a quiz to be like, "Hey, what do you... " I guess you could, technically, but I don't know how it would come across us. "Who do you identify with? Or what do you identify as? Or what race are you?" You can't necessarily ask that, but that's the type of [inaudible 00:18:17] that you have to get done. Say, when we give a shoot or when we give content for others to see, "Hey, what do we need?" We usually recommend, "Hey, we need two different races and two different genders, and we need sizes of those genders to be appropriate to what we actually think is our customers buying."

Nick:

It's a great example, the Team Chubbies. Chubbies makes unbelievable male board shorts. I think they get an underwear too now, but makes male board shorts. And if you watch the progression over time of who was used in their content, fit male, white or black, fit male, white or black, little thicker, white or black, little dad bod, white or black, little larger, white or black. Do you know why? Because they're looking at all the-

Brett:

That's their audience, right? How many fit dudes are out there? Right? Most of us have dad bods. Not you, you're a former soccer player, but yeah, dad bods are everywhere.

Nick:

These are the frat guys that are buying it. And they literally... I've listened and watched the progression of this, and they're like... I'm sure that some people want to aspire to look great, but there's a point where you can get turned off by this, and you're like, "That's not really who I am." So it's this progression, this conversation of the testing begins at the inclusion of what's in the content. That's just a side note. I went on a tangent. I apologize there.

Brett:

Yeah, but I love it. I'll just, I'll key in on that. And so it's a side note, but it's important. A buddy of mine runs an athleisure business and they sell a lot of leggings. And so their models are very diverse, Latinos, African Americans, whites, every race, but also normal looking people, right? These are not all 98 pound supermodel. It looks like normal people, but they're joyful and they're smiling. And they are killing it because people look at it and say, "Well, that's me. That's my body type. That's my style." And it's so needed right now, so I'm really glad you brought that up.

Nick:

It's so true. And it kind of goes down to the typical structures that we run if I were to get a little technical in this. We still launch with dynamic creative. We still launch with... Dynamic creative is probably the first step. If we don't have a full hard belief, and this is the campaign structure, if we don't have a full hard belief in any one direction, whether it's like, we know this is worked in the past, but we're just trying to iterate on the value prop, or we're just trying to iterate on the USB, the box opening, we're just trying to iterate on a specific thing, we will still let Facebook choose or dictate the direction we need to go into up into-

Brett:

So by dynamic creatives, you just mean you're... Explain that for people that don't know the Facebook platform well.

Nick:

Thank you very much. So when launching a campaign, there's DCT, dynamic creative testing, which is a tool that you let Facebook choose. Essentially, you're going, "Hey, we don't want to impose any campaign restrictions to force spend," let's say on an automatic budget campaign, an ABO. You go, "I just need you to spend all my budget on these specific creatives that I, the media buyer, have told you I want you to spend on." And CBO can do that too with a little bit of limitations, but that's easiest communication I can give you on that. The dynamic creative testing [crosstalk 00:21:11]

Brett:

You're basically saying, "Hey, here's our creatives, and Facebook, you go wild and you find the winner."

Nick:

Exactly. We are not imposing a restriction on where money can be spent. We're letting the campaign dictate that. And that is... It's basically taking away the bias that we have of letting Facebook say, "Hey, we have this algorithm, we have this info, we have these consumers, and we're going to run this type of campaign on it."

Brett:

Yeah.

Nick:

Now I will have some of my media buyers look at me and go, "Chef, I won't always run this route," but that's the baseline that we start with, because if somebody has pushback on me, say, let's say David or Scott have a conversation, they're like, "Nick, I actually believe that's not the best use of this campaign, because we're only trying to compare two main concepts." And we'll say, Bernie says, "We'll use the athleisure brand here." We want to understand which color way of these leggings are going to be the one that hits or which price point of these leggings are going to hit. That doesn't need to be dynamic creative tested. That needs to be controlled and tested equally across the board. So that to me has probably been the biggest change. Before, I would launch all with minimum campaign budgets or some sort of structure where we're going audience testing, kind of put that after the fact, because it's not as impactful unless it's going to be purely based on the content or creative and the structure when you go live with it.

Brett:

Yeah. I love that. And so really, I mean, if you look at what is our job as advertisers, whether we're agencies or in house or solopreneur, whatever the case may be, our job is to make great creatives, but to feed the algorithm, to let the algorithm, whether that's Facebook, YouTube, or Google, let... The algorithm's smart. And in the long run, the algorithm's going to do a better job than you are in a lot of ways, so how can you feed it and give it enough creative so that it finds the winners? Or how can you do a very specific test? Like you were talking about, right? I'm testing two creatives, because I'm trying to find is it black or is it pink on the leggings that are going to hit, or is it this price or that price? That type of thing, a controlled test, but either way you're trying to say, "I don't know the answer here on what creative's really going to work, but we're going to find out." And then once we find out, then we're going to go all in on that, so-

Nick:

Because you and I both have these conversations with brands that talk about, "Hey, what's your brand book? What's your stance? What do you stand for? And they have the idea of who they want their customer to be, but it's not always what Facebook will agree to be or Google will agree for it to be. You have to let the replies come in. You have to let the data speak for itself. And I'm shocked. And I don't know if this is in your portfolio, we have about 116 brands right now, 117, I believe. The amount of post-purchase surveys on where you've heard from me or what information they're gathering is probably less than 15%.

Brett:

Totally, a very few of our clients are doing them. I think you've got to do it though, because you're going to be surprised by the answers you find out.

Nick:

Exactly, especially understanding touch points now the attribution is dropping a little bit, touch points and understanding where these people are coming from or how much I should be allocating per channel. We had a very, very intelligent brand, I'll say maybe 2020s, called Rove Concepts, which are a large... It's a larger retailer. It's a furniture, so purchase path takes a lot of time. You got to include your partner. A lot of it is generated interest on Facebook, but a lot of it is actualized on Google, XYZ. And these guys were making... This is the first company or brand that came to Jake myself and goes, "You know what? I understand that we gave you these [inaudible 00:24:37] a platform. I don't know if you guys are actually impacting the bottom line because it shows Google having way more conversions than you guys." I'm like, "Heck is going on?" I'm like, "Well, okay, I get it. I'm sure there's... It's an expensive piece. There's thousands of dollars. Can we just put surveys on the back of this? Or do you have this already live, or can you share this information?"

Nick:

A lot of what we started to see was, although that might not have popped up in the platform, a lot of it was saying I heard first about you on Facebook or Instagram, yet the conversion value, all the revenue was coming from Google. And I'm going, "You can't tell me to stop or that's going to be lowered." So we did a hard test turning off paid social, top of funnel. What do you know? Numbers dropped. Yeah, we wouldn't have been able to cover [crosstalk 00:25:22]

Brett:

Yeah, it's so true. I was just talking to a buddy of mine, Josh Durham, who used to be the head of growth at Groove Life and at an agency, and he talked about the same thing, doing those post purchase surveys and realizing that, man, 70, 80% of customers are going to say, "Hey, I first heard you on social, I first heard you on YouTube," or something like that. And I love Google, right? I'm a Google guy, but search and shopping sometimes takes the credit, especially branded search. You need to run it, but branded search often takes credit for a sale that, really, Facebook or YouTube generated, right?

Nick:

Sure. Preach to the choir [inaudible 00:25:59]

Brett:

Yeah, yeah. So, hey, I want to circle back to creative really quickly, and then we can talk attribution again in a minute, because there's some important notes there. As far as creatives go, what is your process? How are you guys coming up with hooks for the actual creatives, and what types of creatives are you launching with? I just want to give people ideas on what should they be testing next or how should they go about their creative process, or how should they talk to their agency to get them to do things more like you guys? Can you talk about your creative process a little bit?

Nick:

I can, yeah. We have one baseline process that we run with or usually use outside of if someone already gives us [inaudible 00:26:39]. Say a brand was coming to us and they already really had, "Hey, we know who our girl or guy is. Here's what we've learned outside of optimizing and looking at the current campaigns," we start with this process where we begin on Amazon, we begin with Reddit, and we begin with competitors. We don't go to the own brand stuff just yet, because we don't want any biases coming in from marketing messages that consumers might be regurgitating back. If you look at Amazon, there's very honest reviews at one star, two star, and even the three star, very honest reviews that use layman's terms that are common, that they're looking for solutions or points. And a lot of it on Amazon, actually, they don't really care about the brand itself. From the experience, from the information I have, they're not necessarily going to Amazon to find Lulu Lemon, they're going to Amazon to price shop. They're going to Amazon for the efficiency and the effectiveness of getting that product as quick as possible.

Nick:

You're not going there looking for a specific brand. You're usually typing in the product in which you need. Hydration packets, coats, clothing, that's the things that you're really searching for, so you usually get people that don't really about crap about who the brand is or what, and they're not going to hold back from you, because it's pretty anonymous at that point, or what have you. So what we started to find out is, before a brand would come to us and before they're like, "I don't know what talking points or hooks or explanations that need to be in this piece of creative," we go to the Amazon reviews. We probably export between 50 to a hundred. We drop it into a word cloud.

Brett:

So you're looking at the actual reviews from those customers or from competitors and from that category as a whole?

Nick:

Correct. Thank you very much to the clarification. We do not go to the brand own yet. We go from the competitors of the same exact product. So if I'm selling leggings, I'm going to the number one competitor with the most amount of reviews, similar in the legging side. I want to know why this product is winning. I want those five stars and four stars, isolate those by themselves. And I want those one stars and two stars, isolate them by themselves. I use three as a lever if I don't have clear messages of things to say or not say based on the four and fives, and the ones and twos.

Brett:

Got it.

Nick:

Four and five might be skewed.

Brett:

Right.

Nick:

One to twos might be skewed, but the threes might you my answer if I don't find it in the two buckets tracking with me.

Brett:

Totally. And this is brilliant by the way. I absolutely love it, yeah, because you're looking for real pain points, real motivators, real things that customers care about, and you're looking for their language, which just makes all the difference in the world.

Nick:

Because we are going to do market stuff. We're going to try and be cool and cute and playful. We'll do our best to not, but we sometimes fall into these categories. And I'll use one brand for this called Necklet. Necklet created a latch system that's magnetic that allows for stacks of jewelry to not get tangled. Brilliant. For women, or men, mainly for women that are wearing necklaces that don't want it to be tangled because they want to wear multiple, it's absolutely brilliant. It's genius. And the mechanism is a magnet on the back. What is it solving? Is a magnet strong enough? Is it latching? Does it pull your hair? These things are questions that the brand might not necessarily know. But guess who's going to know? The people that are buying it and the people that are leaving those reviews on Amazon. They [inaudible 00:29:51] will tell you exactly how feeling, whether this is a dumb concept or not.

Nick:

So we found out a lot of this. No matter how beautiful it might look, no matter how the feeling of joy might be portrayed, the mechanism is still the most unique value proposition for them, so we better go speak specifically towards. That, to me, was after we got from a competitors, put it into a word cloud. I think the easiest one you guys could use is probably Monkey Learn. It's called monkeylearn/wordcloud. I think you have to potentially set up an account. It's free, but if anybody else has a word cloud generator that is better than that, please hit me up. I'm always looking for more tools.

Brett:

Monkey Learn, and you're looking for... And this is like a word cloud builder?

Nick:

Yeah. So it's called Monkey Learn, and then it's a forward slash word-cloud or wordcloud. I'm not sure exactly on [inaudible 00:30:36], but I can pull it for you right after this. And that way, I'm able to aggregate all my star reviews. I would say it's easier if you... The more, the better. The more, the more accurate. Drop it into this word cloud, and it's going to generate and pull up the most commonly used words and tones. And that way, now here's your messages. Here's your information. Here's the things that you need to use. This, Brett, I'm telling you, this thing has allowed processes. Because if you don't know where to begin, that's where you go right away.

Brett:

Yeah, because if you don't have something like this, you're just going to begin with that discussion around the boardroom. It's going to be virtual, right? But you're talking to the client, you're talking to the brand owner, you're talking to the marketing director, and you're like, "Well, hey, our customer is this, and they believe this and they want that." And that's valuable, but this is amazing, where you're saying, "Okay, let's see what the people, the real customers are actually saying, and let's aggregate that. And let's look for tone and let's look for actual words." Yeah, just absolutely brilliant. I love it.

Nick:

The next step that we take from is... Say we already have this, say somebody already has this understanding, the next step that we have here is, where are you lacking? Where do you think your brand or your audience has not been addressed? This is usually right where we get in the conversation of inclusion, usually where we get in the conversation of, it seems like we're over indexed on a certain demographic, a certain gender, certain size. That, to me, is something that we really, really spend a great amount of time. We're very fortunate. We're in LA, so we have a melting pot of people to pull from, and that's something that we know, as a unique advantage, we have to leverage. So that generally is our second conversation that we have, of like, where can we do some tests to where we're not doing something that's not on brand, we're not doing something that we have fear of isolating a consumer, but we have the ability to actually get real learnings in a direction that we never ran before. Here's an example, Luca Danni, which is [inaudible 00:32:29]. It's a bangle and accessory company, bracelet.

Brett:

It's called Luke and Danni? Did I hear that right?

Nick:

Yeah. It technically reads Luca Danni, but Luke and Danni is what it is, and they sell bangles, they sell bracelets. Well, in this test, they usually always show the wrist, and it's the wrist of the woman buying it and the various women buying it. And they actually started seeing a little bit of a performance increase on the thicker in which the wrist began to [crosstalk 00:32:59]

Brett:

Interesting.

Nick:

And I'm like, why is this? Then you look at the export of the purchasing behavior of the people buying it. You have the strong representation of the Bible bell, strong representation of the south, strong representation of a little bit of the east coast. But you're like, "Wow, okay. I think some of our demographics are not the assumed thinner audience that we once believe there to be, so how do we mix this up?" So now we have wrists of all shapes and sizes. You hear me?

Brett:

Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You're there. I thought I lost you for a minute. Yeah, so wrists of all shapes. This is so important. What's really interesting, I going to key in on something that Ezra Firestone mentioned to me a couple years ago, where they notice, BOOM!, their brand BOOM! and Cindy Joseph, it's really women over the age of 50, skin care, makeup, and really good stuff, but they found... They thought, "Well, what if we went a little bit younger with our models, or a little bit younger with our ambassadors that we have in the videos." And they started getting complaints. People were reaching out saying, "That's not me. This person is younger than me." Right? We sometimes forget that people really are looking for, "Can I see myself in this video? Can I see myself in this product. And is this for me?" And if it's not, then they're likely not going to buy, right? And so fascinating test, that, hey, thicker wrists, bigger wrists lead to better results. Diversifying your models leads to better results. You got to explore and got to test. That totally makes sense.

Nick:

Anybody can do this too. That's probably the biggest thing that I want to drive home, is those testing of using Amazon first and Reddit first because the natural communication, community already being built there within your competitors. It's not rocket... The way you present that information, the way you speak to it really will pull in on the expertise that you have, but this isn't rocket science, man. We have anywhere between 100 to 150 brands at any time. And if anybody's looking for analysis of their creative or performance or angles or whatever they're taking, they go this direction, because they know they can get it, they can get it quick, and they don't need to wait on other people to do it. So it's something I would definitely like to pass that forward.

Brett:

Yeah. Love it. What else? What do you see working on Facebook right now? And I know that this stuff has a tendency to be short lived, but in terms of length of videos, what are you finding that's working, or maybe, maybe there's different links, different angles for cold traffic versus remarketing? What are some of the kind of tips and ideas you're seeing there?

Nick:

Well, I'm going to caveat this [inaudible 00:35:25]. We are using two tools. So we're using North Beam and we're using Triple Whale, because we are making-

Brett:

Both fantastic tools.

Nick:

I completely agree. We have to make sure that we're looking at the correct amount of information or data and it's purely based upon a third party tool that's giving me the direction of, okay, this campaign, this ad set, this purchase path is making the most sense for us, so-

Brett:

Yeah. And just a quick note here, because I know the guys at North Beam and at Triple Whale, great platforms, but I'll talk North Beam for just a second. The way it works, it's basically first party data. So they put a first party pixel on your site, they put DNS record there where now they can have an infinity timeframe-

Nick:

Yes.

Brett:

... click attribution, right? So instead of attribution being only seven days, right? So after click happens, and after seven days, Facebook can no longer track it. With something like North Beam or Triple Whale, you track it forever, right? And you can go back and say, "Hey, this one YouTube click or this one Facebook click led to a customer who bought 20 times." Right? You can see all that data, because then these tools integrate with Facebook, Google-

Nick:

Yes.

Brett:

... Shopify, your email platform. They pull all that stuff together. So anyway, this isn't a commercial for those tools. We don't make anything from those tools, but you need that data to know what's really working and what's not.

Nick:

Well, we never used to have... We always needed this.

Brett:

We both needed it, yeah. And [crosstalk 00:36:42]

Nick:

We can get close without it. And now we can't. So now when I'm looking at campaigns, so I'm looking at what's working. Right now, let's go January 19th, 11:50 AM, Wednesday, 2022. What's working right now is images. I'm now getting images with plain background colors, bold colors. I'm saying yellow blues, pinks and purples, and big bold text. Call outs of the pain points of the consumer. And if I were to be more specific, this is primarily top of funnel, and we're having very minimal branded elements here, because all I'm trying to do is build engagement, build a little bit of direction that I'm trying to go in this place, it's just the right path for me to go down towards, and it is the quickest thing that can be launched. It is the easiest thing that can be made.

Brett:

Yeah.

Nick:

Pain points, value propositions, big, bold colored text, and maybe, if you really want to include it, what does the product look like? Is can just be a product on a white image or somewhere the left or right side of things. We're using this top of funnel aggressively for two reasons. One, if we can get the engagement, and if we can get some sort of understanding of people agreeing with it, or maybe it say other way, not agreeing with it, but that you're usually just seeing the comments, the shares or the engagement overall, I know I'm on the right path. I need to make an image or a more detailed image, shorter video or longer form video to run top of funnel. This is Facebook specifically. So our launching period right now is major callouts with the value propositions or with pain points that we believe for each brand with that color text to kind of pop off page. Second, if that is already being done or something that's already going down that path, we are going with 30 to 45 second videos.

Nick:

I was a huge proponent of sub 30, generally around 15 seconds, but I need this bigger audience for people to pull from, because things on platform, the pools of remarketing are not as quality as they once were because of the drop in reporting. So the more that we can have people engaging or watching the videos longer, I'm running all of our remarketing, or at least our reengagement middle of funnel, off of these audience and pools of creative that we're actually spending more time, that these consumers are spending more time on.

Brett:

Got it. So you're running... So yeah, I remember, and I'm not a Facebook guy, but I remember people talking about, "Hey, shorter creatives are working 15 seconds and things like that," which I'm sure is still the case to a certain degree. But what you're saying, and this totally makes a lot of sense, is 45 seconds, 30 seconds to 45 seconds to your cold traffic audiences, because then you can remarket to people that have watched half of that or all that or whatever the case may be, and now that's a much better audience than maybe the remarketing audiences you would get from someone who engages with a 15 second video. Did I understand that correctly?

Nick:

You did, because we need the... Well, for just a stronger audience. And I don't know what happened. I think the biggest thing that we've seen, if we're talking remarketing, the content, I'm not too sure. I wouldn't feel comfortable speaking about what's working across the board for our brands because it's very [inaudible 00:39:44] and very particular.

Brett:

Yeah, yeah.

Nick:

But one thing that is been a constant is, we need more periods of time. We used to be able to be very segmented, and like, "Cool. One to seven day, you're going to get this message. 8 to 14, you're going to get this message. 15 and on, you're going to get this. It's not working for us. We can't get... I hope it is for others because it was so incredible to push them down a purchase path, but we're going 30 days, 45 days, the largest pull in which we can get from, I think the largest pull is probably around 90, but the biggest pull that we can pull from, I want that to be my remarketing pull, and it's just a mixture of various engagement testimonials of videos of them reinforcing the product or the brand. That's the only thing that I know I can get some consistent benchmarks on, because other than this, there's just no consistency.

Brett:

Yeah. It makes a lot of sense. And as platforms are being more restricted on audiences they can build and how they track and how they report, I think in a lot of cases, we're just going to have to simplify, right? Some of the hyper segmentation of this seven day audience, 14 day audience, 30 day audience, some of that is going away. We're seeing that on Google too, actually, so I think that's probably pretty widespread at this point. Going simpler, going broader makes sense. How are you coming... Because I know, especially on Facebook, Facebook is hungry for new creatives, new concepts. How do you go about refreshing content so regularly and finding winning angles? Any insights there on process that you can share?

Nick:

So I don't have a... Ah, I got some stuff. So I don't have a firm one on this because it really is going to depend on budget. So I'll put a caveat there. The more money you have, the general amount of testing that you can do at higher volume. The only difference between a big budget and a little budget is that a big budget learns quicker, so it's no difference. The process is [crosstalk 00:41:37]

Brett:

You're doing the same things. It's just the speed at which you're doing them is what the budget really dictates.

Nick:

Exactly. Exactly. So I want to put, "Oh that's my brand is not spending 25,000, 50,000, whatever it is." I can't do that. You can, you just can't do as much or as quick. We did start the Konstant Kreative, why we built this is because we believe that there's an internal revision of content. There's an internal revision in planning of strategy for content. And then there's a marketing message. Generally, if it's evergreen, without talking about mother's day, father's day one-off moments, if the general process is happening, we are iterating on a seven day and a ten day window. Let me explain. Our current organization structure is, we operate in a pod system. So we have our copywriter, our senior media buyer, junior media buyer account manager, and channel specific buyers that we need to plug in.

Nick:

But the general makeup is admin, media buyers, strategist. We then started to build a new department, which is our creative strategist. Their core role is to analyze campaign performance on creative specifically. They don't care about the audience. They don't care about interests. Just the performance of the creative. Give that feedback into the client. Give that feedback into our creative director to shoot more content. And their job is to come up with the concepts of, "Here's why here's where I think the angles are going to be going towards." Now, it's various and different for all because the budget's going to be different for all, but it's usually out of two things. The increase of quality of life, that's one core concept, core understanding. Why is this product going to increase the value of my life or make my life better? Then, in the same flip side is, if I don't have this, how terrible or how poor or how unfortunate or how much struggle will my life have?

Nick:

So with those two deciding factors of how much I'm going to increase or how much I'm going to decrease, then we come into the concepts of positioning for each one of these products. So with that frame of mind, we have a seven day sprint to a ten day sprint of analysis, seven days to get the campaign running and live. First two, generally speaking, are not spending a tremendous amount of money, unless something works or unless we have... This is a commitment that the brand or us have [inaudible 00:43:48]. We are spending this money. We got to learn. I say 10 days because there's a little bit of updates attribution. You know, if you're running Facebook, data comes in very sporadically, so we want a little bit more time to run this. It's unfortunate because, at least for our team right now, gone are the days of launch a campaign on one day, slam budget on the second day, turn the campaign off on things that didn't work by the third day. That's more drawn out to a five day, seven day [crosstalk 00:44:14].

Brett:

Yeah. Totally.

Nick:

So if I sat there and go, the analysis that the creative strategy team needs to be doing is on that three day, five day, seven day, ten day window, because that's going to include a full week plus weekends and give you back on that Monday, because you're usually not going to get that launch data on that early, early day. To me, this is an ongoing iteration, it's an ongoing sequence of conversation with the brands, and I'm actually doing a pretty decent case study on what's happening on this. I'm going to unveil it live at Affiliate World, because we're working with Motion app-

Brett:

Nice.

Nick:

... which has some really good data on what's happening, where it's happening, and what insights that are having on their campaign, elements needed in creative. And then we have a large volume of assets on the constant side. So I'm trying to pull all the assets that we've seen perform before and all the assets that we've seen being requested, trying to pull a correlation between the two. And it should be some interesting stuff that we're going to find out, because a lot of this that people don't have, and I hate to hate to call it out, but they don't have a process of feedback loop. They don't have the understanding of when they need to go back and analyze and launch it. They can come up with great ideas, but how long does it take for them to make that test, or how long does it take for them to get information back to the people to create more?

Brett:

Just absolutely fantastic. So unfortunately, we're kind of running out of time, which is a bummer because I would like to continue to geek out or geek up here with you, but I want to kind of go high level for just a minute and just a few questions that I think will help anybody. And I think as people have been listening, hey, we got really technical, we got into some details, so pass this on to your media buyer. If you are a media buyer, I'm sure you're just salivating and loving every second of this. Let's talk high level, Nick. What should people be focusing more on in the coming year? And what should they be focusing less on? Meaning, kind of how are things shifting? What do we need to be really keying in on to get results? And maybe, what are some things that used to be important to pay attention to that now aren't?

Nick:

Great question. Fantastic questions. If you're media buyers or your agencies or your team is coming to you with audience insights or campaign structure insights, I would encourage them to let that go and encourage them to stop spending the time in finding structures and more spending the time on the research of what are these campaigns doing? What are the messages being said in the creative or content? And it has always been content first.

Brett:

All right, Spicy Curry listeners, here's the deal. Nick's audio cut out towards the end. Now, the good news is you heard 99% plus of what Nick had to say, but what you missed is kind of important. You missed how to get a hold of Nick. How can you follow him? How can you learn more about him? How can you get in touch with his agency? And so I'm going to tell you right now. The first thing is you have to follow Nick on Twitter. His Twitter game is an A plus. If you're in the DOC space, e-comm space at all, you got to follow him. And his handle is @iamshackelford. So letter I A-M Shackelford, so check that out. His agency is Structured. So structured.agency, check it out. They cut their teeth on paid social, but they also, Nick and Chase Dimond run an email marketing agency, so check out structured as well.

Brett:

And then one of my favorite events now. I think you should check it out. The events do get a little bit technical and nerdy, but GeekOut that Nick runs with James Van Elswyk, great event. So that's geekoutedu.com. So, check that out. You will not be disappointed. And as always, we want to hear from you. If you found this episode to be helpful, please share it with friends. Also, this is a brand new podcast, so go give it a rating on Apple iTunes, if you don't mind. It will make my day. It will allow other people to find the show. And with that, until next time, thank you for listening.

‍

Few people understand Facebook Advertising and Direct Response Marketing like Molly Pittman. You’ve probably seen Molly on stage at events like Traffic & Conversion Summit or Social Media Marketing World or you’ve seen her and Ezra Firestone create amazing content through Smart Marketer. In this episode we dive into a subject that is often glossed over - creating great offers and building acquisition funnels. Without a great offer, your ad efforts will fall short. And great offers aren’t just about discounting. 

‍

It’s the perfect subject to help you win in a privacy-first online world. 

‍

Here's what we cover:

• How Smart Marketer and BOOM are building and launching new acquisition funnels every month.
• How to test offers via email before investing in ad dollars.
• What metrics we should pay attention to in a post iOS 14 world.
• 3 ways to get more testimonials.
• What is likely to change in the future and what most likely won’t. 

‍
Mentioned in This Episode:

Molly Pittman

   - LinkedIn

   - Instagram

Smart Marketer‍

Smart Marketer Podcast‍

Ezra Firestone‍

Traffic & Conversion Summit‍

John Grimshaw‍

BOOM! by Cindy Joseph‍

“5 Makeup Tips For Older Women”‍

“The State Of Paid Ads In 2022”‍

“Big Magic” by Elizabeth Gilbert

“Good to Great” by Jim Collins‍

“Turning the Flywheel” by Jim Collins

Transcript:

Brett:

Welcome to the Spicy Curry podcast, where we explore hot takes in e-commerce and digital marketing. We feature some of the brightest minds, some of the spiciest perspectives on how to grow your business online.

Brett:

Season one of this podcast is built on the old business adage that all it takes is three things to grow. One, have something good to say. Two, say it well. And three, say it often. My guest today is Molly Pittman. She's the CEO of Smart Marketer in partnership with Ezra Firestone. We're talking about crafting irresistible offers and building acquisition funnels for e-commerce.

Brett:

So, lean in, buckle up, and enjoy this episode with Molly Pittman.

Brett:

The Spicy Curry podcast is brought to you by OMG Commerce, Attentive, OneClickUpsell, Zipify Pages, and Payability.

Brett:

My guest today really needs no introduction, but I'll give a quick introduction just in case. Today, we're talking about a variety of things. We're going to talk about getting the right offers, and we're going to talk about acquisition funnels. We're going to talk about getting the right mindset as a market, as a media buyer, and as an advertiser.

Brett:

I have the one, the only, Molly Pittman joining me on the show today. Really, if you haven't had the privilege of hearing Molly Pittman, well we're about to fix that, but you've missed out. Molly is a legend, debuted at Trafficking Conversion Summit. It's been years and years ago now, I don't even know how many years. But just blew up and everyone was like, "Man, Molly Pittman is the best," and she is.

Brett:

Now she's partnered with my buddy, Ezra Firestone. Molly is the CEO of Smart Marketer, and I get to observe what she's doing there, what the team is doing there, and they're cranking out amazing content, amazing training that I get to be a part of at some level, which is super fun for me. We're going to dive into what's working now and a variety of other things.

Brett:

Molly Pittman, welcome to the show, and thanks for taking the time.

Molly:

Hey, let's do it. What's up, Brett Curry?

Brett:

What's up? What's up?

Molly:

I'm so happy to be here. I'm so happy to be here. Hello to all of you listers. You're listening to an awesome podcast, huh? When Brett reached out to do this, I was like, "Hey, it's about time." I know you've had podcasts in the past, but excited to hear you more regularly. Yes, love working with you Brett, from the agency side of things, the faculty side of things at Smart Marketer. All of our students love everything you have to share. So, thank you for having me.

Brett:

We get to collaborate on some content. Any time I can go somewhere and hang out with you, John Grimshaw, and Ezra Firestone, I am saying yes to that. Anytime I can make it happen, I'm doing that, because you guys are awesome. [crosstalk 00:03:14].

Molly:

I don't know how much work we get done, but we have a lot of fun.

Brett:

A decent amount of work.

Molly:

I'm kidding.

Brett:

Totally. When we get together, like the last time we all met at Ezra's house, Ezra just cooked some really fancy, simple... He went into full-on chef mode for everybody, and it was pretty amazing.

Molly:

Hey, Ezra is the servant leader. I think we were there-

Brett:

He really is.

Molly:

... hosting a live workshop, and Ezra was like, "Hey, my job right now is to cook and make sure you all are fed." Good example of leadership right there.

Brett:

[crosstalk 00:03:49] make some lattes, or pour some espresso shots. He had this amazing espresso machine-

Molly:

"What do you need? I got it."

Brett:

Yeah. The funny thing is, I'm like, "So Ezra, are you going to drink some espresso?" He was like, "No, I gave that up." He quit. All right, so you're just making for everybody else.

Molly:

That is something that I love about what we're doing at Smart Marketer, is its different from any culture I've ever been a part of, even if it's a day of consulting inside of a business where we really do have fun first. We get our stuff done. We meet our goals. We serve the world. I think that that fun part is what a lot of people are missing out on. It is okay to have fun, and it actually makes the rest of it way more enjoyable and profitable.

Brett:

It's stress relief. It allows you get the right mindset, like fosters creativity when you're having fun and enjoying what you do, and enjoying who you're doing it with. Yeah, you guys do such a good job with that, and Ezra kind of drives that forward where it's like to serve to the world unselfishly and profit that mantra is true. It's not just something that sounds good, or sort of feels good, or looks good on a shirt. It's the way you guys live and the way you guys operate.

Brett:

I think it's part of the reason why we get along so well. We're huge advocates of culture, and putting people first, but also letting people shine and be themselves. You should enjoy working with one another. It makes a difference.

Molly:

Have more fun, y'all.

Brett:

And have more fun.

Molly:

It also allows a lot more longevity in this business. This year, I've been doing this 10 years, which isn't as long as a lot of you, Brett, or people like Ezra, but it's still a decade.

Brett:

Wait a minute. That sounded a veiled "old person" comment there.

Molly:

Well no, I just know your story.

Brett:

It's all good.

Molly:

You have seniority.

Brett:

A little bit. A little bit, yeah. In Internet years, a decade is forever. Yeah, I started like 2004, so I'm definitely the old dude when it comes to all that.

Molly:

Yeah, but you know a lot of my story where I had the opportunity to intern, and then become the VP of Marketing at Digital Marketer, and had an awesome time at that company. But man, I was grinding then. A lot of times, I felt like crap. To be in a situation where I still get to serve the market, still get to teach, still get to be in this business, but feel really good about it, the best part of it is I know I can do it for so much longer now.

Brett:

Yeah. Yeah.

Molly:

It's a long game. It's not a short game, y'all.

Brett:

I'm really glad we brought this up. It was not planned. That feel good, have fun, and it will bring out the best part of you when you work as well. You'll be able to produce better when you're doing those things.

Brett:

Let's dive in, Molly Pittman. We've got a lot of ground to cover. We're going to talk mindset. We're going to talk tactics. We're going to talk strategy. I also want to talk about your dog rescue. We'll get to that in a little bit. Let's talk about offers for a minute. Those that have been listening, and hopefully you're listening to every episode in season one of this podcast, we're talking about something good to say, saying it well, saying it often.

Brett:

One of the things you and I were chatting about, and I love this, is that you're really focusing on your offers right now, and what offers are working, and what offers are not working. It really digs into that saying things well, and also saying them often. Talk to me a little bit about... We have two angles we're going to look at. We've got Boom on the e-commerce side, Smart Marketer which is kind of on the info training side, but what offers are working right now?

Molly:

Yeah, great question. First, I want to talk about what an offer is. I realized during our Mastermind call last week that people use this word to describe a lot of different things. That causes confusion in itself. There are a few different ways to talk about an offer. Really, what I'm talking about today are acquisition offers. Essentially, what vehicles are we using to start a conversation with someone who's never heard of our brand before, and turn them into a buyer?

Molly:

A lot of times, that means a lead magnet, or a pre-sale article, or some sort of coupon. It definitely depends on the business and where you are currently. The more, especially post-iOS 14 with all the crazy stuff happening in paid media right now, the more that you can focus on your offers, the better that everything is going to go. I mean that in a few ways. Number one, putting more time into offer creation. I would say in both businesses, other than making sure our products, the things people are buying, are good. Other than that, I would say offer creation is where we spend most of our time, at least at the C level.

Molly:

When it comes to marketing strategy, offer creation is where we spend most of our time. Sometimes, we'll release an offer that John, Ezra and I have maybe spent 15 hours discussing. It looks like an opt-in page that took 30 minutes to write, but so much time and effort went into the psychology of what it is, and the delivery of what it is, and how it sets us up to sell. It's really, really spending time here. As the CEO, I'd be like this is one of my still most important duties every single day.

Molly:

The second part of it is thinking about the way you deliver it. People miss out on this part of offer creation because what we don't realize is that someone might be interested in solving a particular problem, or they might be interested in a particular topic. But they may not be interested in the way you're delivering it. Let's take Boom for example, a pre-sale article that Ezra has been using for over five years, that's the best acquisition offer ever created for that business is five makeup tips for older women. Simple pre-sale article, we optimize for purchases, there are different products on the page. It's an amazing, amazing pre-sale article.

Molly:

Well guess what? It also works really well as a lead magnet. A way we've been able to scale that business is to take that pre-sale article, turn it into a simple PDF, and put it behind an opt-in wall. There are some people that would rather give their email in exchange for an asset, and see that as higher value. There are some people that would rather read an article. So, this isn't just about the creation of new offers, but also the repackaging of assets that you already have to deliver them in a way that's going to reach more of the market that you're trying to reach based off of how they like to consume information.

Molly:

It's why videos and still images are equally as important on a paid traffic platform, because there are some people that like people. There are some people that react images. It's important to keep both of those in mind.

Brett:

I love that. So, what is the offer, and really crafting it and thinking about how do we make this offer irresistible, how do we craft this article so that someone says, "I have to have that. One, that designed just for me. Two, that's solving a real problem or it's meeting a real need. Three, I got to have it right now." [crosstalk 00:11:29] those things. Then also, how you actually deliver it.

Brett:

I want to break that down just a little bit. You had mentioned that sometimes you, John, and Ezra spend 15 hours crafting an offer where it looks like just a simple page, but you're really thinking about this. This goes way beyond the, "Oh, should we do a 10% discount? Or a 15% discount?" That's what I want to talk about here.

Molly:

Yes, but it's also different. What I would see, I would say, in 90% of students, is they spend those 15 hours on the ad, and "Oh, the offer, I'm just going to throw a page up there." It's like, no if you have to choose, it should actually be the other way around.

Brett:

The offer, yeah. Yeah, it totally makes sense. Walk us through a little bit. What is your process as you're thinking about crafting an offer? What questions are you asking? What are you thinking about? What do you want to have in front of you as you're building that irresistible offer?

Molly:

Of course. The first question is, what do we need? What need is there in the business that we are solving with this offer? So, the need might be "It's Q4 and we want to monetize, we need a sale, we need a promotion." Or the need might be, "Hey, we need more of an evergreen acquisition offer-"

Brett:

[crosstalk 00:12:48] need as business [crosstalk 00:12:49].

Molly:

As a business, exactly.

Brett:

Yep.

Molly:

So, is it more promotional? Monetization? Or do we need something more acquisition that's evergreen that's going to continue to bring new customers in? It always starts with what does the business need right now? We try to create one of these in each business once a month we're creating a new offer. A lot of times, we're using other offers that we've created in the past, but we try to create one new offer every single month. It first starts with "What do we need? What does the business need right now?"

Brett:

Awesome. Then what comes next? You understand "This is what we need. We need something evergreen. We need a quick hit in this area. This is what need as a business." What do you look at next?

Molly:

What are we going to sell? What is the true end goal of this offer? Maybe the end goal is for Smart Marketer, we're going to sell our Smart Paid Traffic course, and we want to do that on an evergreen basis. We always work backwards with offers. If you don't, you're going to end up with a funnel that doesn't really make a lot of sense, that might have a really attractive front end offer, but doesn't transition to the sale, which is the opposite of what we're looking for.

Brett:

Yeah, totally, totally makes sense.

Molly:

Then we pick-

Brett:

[crosstalk 00:14:10]. Yeah, please keep going.

Molly:

Oh, sorry. Go ahead. Then we pick the medium, so what medium do we feel is best suited for this particular scenario? That definitely comes down to business type. It comes down to what's already working in our business, what can we do more of, also what can we do that's different from what we've done in the past because maybe we have four or five evergreen acquisition offers running in our ad account. To add another, we either need to go after a different audience or we need to have a very different offer type that isn't going to compete with what we're currently doing.

Brett:

Yeah. Yeah, I love that. Let's look at some examples here related to Boom that I think will help people a lot. You guys are working on an acquisition funnel every month, and that acquisition funnel I would assume, starts with an offer. Is that where that begins?

Molly:

Absolutely. Absolutely.

Brett:

What does that look like? Can you talk about any examples there for Boom?

Molly:

A great example of this is going back to "Five Makeup Tips for Older Women", the pre-sale article. We know that that works, so we know that this audience wants makeup tips, or they want to have discussions around makeup. What is something similar but different that we could do? Last year, we launched a lead magnet. We switched the delivery. It's not a pre-sale article. It's something you're opting in for. We're collecting the email address, and then going for the sale.

Molly:

So, using what we know works, but changing the conversation a little bit. Instead of five makeup tips, it was, or is, a 10 Minute Makeup Guide. So, still speaking to makeup, but now speaking to women who are less maybe concerned about the tips, but are more interested in the fact, "Holy crap, this only takes 10 minutes." That's an awesome speed and automation hook. That would be a good example of saying-

Brett:

[crosstalk 00:16:16] how to take care of your makeup, or how to do your morning makeup routine in 10 minutes or something like that, that's kind of the angle or the thought?

Molly:

Exactly. That came from a need of we have scaled the current evergreen acquisition offers as much as we can across our paid traffic sources. We need something new to talk about. We need to be able to walk into the party and have a similar, but different, discussion. Okay, let's change the topic and let's change the vehicle in how we deliver it.

Brett:

Yeah, that's awesome. The five makeup tips, and yeah we've had the privilege of running that on YouTube for four years or five years or something, and it still works. The five makeup tips is great. It does appeal to the curiosity. People are like, "Okay, well I would like makeup tips. I'm over 50," and I should not, by the way we were talking old jokes, I'm not over 50, and I'm not a woman either, so you're thinking "I want to know what these tips are," so there's a little bit of curiosity and there's also some benefit there that you want to get, which is cool.

Brett:

But this 10 Minute Makeup Guide, that's speaking to someone who says... It really resonates well with that over 50 powerful women audience that Boom is after, is they're like, "I don't have time for makeup, and I don't want to take the time. 30 minutes getting ready for the day, no way." How did you guys land on that? Was that something that you heard consistent feedback from customers? Is there something you guys started to pick up on, because you know the customer? Where did that come from?

Molly:

In both businesses, these ideas usually come from the customer, or feedback to anything that we're doing from an organic standpoint. In our businesses, that's the benefit of social media. It's not that we're going for all this organic traffic, which is nice, but not always sustainable. We use social media as a way to test different conversations with the audience. Usually, this starts, for Smart Marketer, as a blog post, for example, and Boom, too.

Molly:

Last year, we've released a blog post about our "Love Demo Love Formula" which is a formula we teach to [crosstalk 00:18:23]-

Brett:

Formerly known as "The Testimonial Sandwich", so there was the artist formerly as "Testimonial Sandwich", that "Love Demo Love". Feels better.

Molly:

It's a formula, a template that we teach for ad creatives. We see that that does really well on the blog. The email has high open rates. People are spending a lot of time on that page. They're clicking on whatever call to action is within that blog post. Wow, this is something our audience is interested in. Can we turn this into some sort of acquisition offer? Sometimes, it also comes-

Brett:

Yeah, [crosstalk 00:18:54] clarify, just so people understand because you may be lost like, "What are you talking about? Love Demo Love, and with Testimony? What the heck?" It's Ezra's tried and true ad formula of starting with a testimonial, a real user-generated content testimonial, or maybe a couple, like one to three, product demonstration in the middle, product video demonstration in the middle of the video, and then you close with more testimonials or more love. So, "Love Demo Love", and also what used to be called the "Testimonial Sandwich".

Brett:

So, anyway, I just wanted to clarify for those that are like, "What are you talking about?" All right, go ahead.

Molly:

A lot of times, it comes from conversations with the audience, a response from the audience. Then sometimes, it comes just random inspiration. For Smart Marketer, an offer we're working on right now that's going to happen soon is the "State of Paid Advertising in 2022", which is a free four hour workshop. It will show an analysis we did of over $60 million in ad spend. That just came from a random idea I had in the shower, what would this audience be interested in, how can I help set them up for 2022? It's not always coming from the customer. Sometimes it's just a random idea that comes in when you give it space.

Molly:

Usually, it is coming from something that already exists, or that we see from competition, or other people out in the market.

Brett:

Just an interesting side note, are you an idea in the shower person? Is that where your ideas come from? I'd just be curious to know where do your good ideas come from? What's the space where disproportionately you have good ideas coming from that space?

Molly:

It's really whenever I give it space. That's the key. It's usually, in today's world where things are so busy, forced space, time away from my phone, which is the shower, which is driving in the car, or hiking. If you guys are interested in this topic, read "Big Magic" by Elizabeth Gilbert. It's one of my favorite books. I read it in 2015 or '16, but she basically explains how this works, like how does creativity actually work and how can you set yourself up to be more open to cool ideas? The cool ideas are out there. Most of us are just too shut off, too busy, too addicted to what we're doing to allow the ideas to actually come in. So yes, any time you give it-

Brett:

What was the name of that book again?

Molly:

"Big Magic".

Brett:

"Big Magic". Love that. I'm going to check that out. Just a quick note here, because I've always found this fascinating, I have zero good ideas in the shower. I really don't know that I've ever had one positive, useful, meaningful idea from the shower other than "Hey babe, we're out of shampoo." That's all I think about in the shower. However, for me, two places that I get disproportionately high amount of good ideas, one is if in the morning if I get up when it's still quiet, and I have eight kids so it needs to be early in the morning when it's quiet, but if I feel like I'm ahead of the game, if I feel like there's nothing that I have to do right that second and I can just kind of sit in the quiet, good ideas come from there.

Brett:

The other place, and this is an odd one, but on airplanes. I sit on an airplane. They shut that door. I never pay for WiFi, I just don't want to. Some of the ideas that have shaped OMG, that have shaped the agency, came from me sitting on an airplane. I don't know why. That's my shower time. I even said a few times, I'm like I should just go fly somewhere and then fly right back, and I'm going to get great ideas.

Molly:

A lot of people do that. I have a friend who took a flight to Hong Kong and back, and never even stepped into the city just to write a book. The reason for that Brett, those are different forms of meditation. It's the same thing. It's essentially cutting off stimulation that is-

Brett:

Right, there's nothing else.

Molly:

... keeping your brain busy so that your mind and your soul can be quiet, so that these ideas can really formulate. That's the key.

Brett:

I love that. I love the fact that I'm not the only one that loves... I don't even like sitting on airplanes, but I get the best ideas. Anyway, cool. That's awesome. Cool, so thank you for chasing down that rabbit trail. I think that's so useful. Where were we though?

Molly:

We were talking about offers that are working right now, and I was chatting about the 10 Minute Makeup Guide, the workshop we're doing for Smart Marketer, and just saying that lot of the ideas comes from what you guys say, what we see as a need out in the market. A lot of them are random, unique, creative ideas, which are fun too.

Brett:

So, really fostering both, so you kind of need a vehicle or a mechanism to collect that feedback from customers, and then you need to create space for yourself to have these good ideas, and then bring it together with your executive team to get the idea when you're relaxing or whatever, and then you bring it to the rest of the executive team and you hammer that out. It may be 15 hours, but at the end of that time you've got a killer offer that you can really use to grow the business.

Molly:

Yeah, Brett, and some other steps that I didn't mention there, just to sort of round out the actual tactical, how do we get it out the door. Once we have the idea and we feel good about the offer, we feel good about its ability to do what we need it to do in the business, then we go into action mode actually creating this thing. That usually looks like a brainstorm call with our copy team where we discuss what is this, and how is it going to be presented?

Molly:

We talk about the big hooks, what are the big selling points of this offer, what problems does this offer actually solve? Of course, how do we want this to be delivered? Is it a PDF? Is it a pre-sale article? Is it a simple opt-in page where we're giving a coupon, like you said? How will this be delivered. Then they're able to go and make it sound good, not only the page in which we're selling the thing, but also the delivery of the thing. Then of course, that's passed off to design, it's passed off to our ads team and everything starts to get into motion.

Brett:

It's so good to get copy involved early, because that's such an important part of everything else. You have to be able to really strike that cord and make people want it, and copy is such a huge part of that. I love that you do that fairly early on.

Molly:

Yeah, and it's not just writing the copy that is the offer. It's also the selling of the offer. Even if it's a free thing, you're still selling someone on the idea.

Brett:

Totally. Totally, yeah.

Molly:

Every new acquisition funnel is first tested through an email promotion to the list, because we don't want to go out and buy-

Brett:

Okay, so you build the product, you test the email, email to the list first.

Molly:

Yeah. Of course, it's always going to convert better to your list than it will to paid traffic. We want to test it to the list first before we start to buy ads, mainly because we want to see of course, what's the conversion rate on this thing if it's free, and does this actually generate sales? We can create offers all day, but if it's not meeting the need of the business, then it's not going to work. It's first tested to email. That also gets some good traction going on your pixel so that Facebook and Google can start to see what types of people are taking action on this page, get some momentum.

Molly:

Then we stop for a second. We look at heat maps. We look at conversion rate. We look at the performance from a data standpoint. We make any optimizations that we might need to make, and then it's ready to go to you and your team, and hand over to our media buyer for paid ads.

Brett:

I love that. I love that. So, you're testing to the email list first to understand does this convert. And hey, if it doesn't convert to your list, it's not going to convert to cold traffic.

Molly:

Exactly.

Brett:

So, does it convert, and at what level, and kind of understanding that a little bit. Then you're going to run some ads and start getting conversions, trying to pixel, finding out what's what. You pause that. You then look at heat maps, make some tweaks/optimizations to the funnel itself. Then you go ham on the advertising at that point.

Molly:

Then it's hopefully ready for scale. Probably half of these that we create don't work still to this day. That's okay. We say, "Let's put it on hold for a second." It's never that this just doesn't work, and we're not going to use it ever again. It's "Hey, let's put this to the side and try to figure out why it didn't work, and maybe we can use it later." There are a lot of times that we just can't get it to work, and that's okay.

Brett:

Right. Really, you guys are the best. You're the best in the world at some of this stuff. If you've got a 50% success rate, what's everybody else going to have? That's likely to be 50% or maybe less even. What's interesting, we just walked through that four step process you guys go through, most people it's like think for five minutes about an offer, maybe it's more than that, but think about an offer and then "All right cool, let's throw a bunch of media behind it to see how it does," where you guys are testing with your audience or email list, you're running some small tests and ads, you're getting data, you're optimizing and then you're going big. I love that so much.

Brett:

It kind of goes back to one of my favorite business principles that comes from Jim Collins, the author of "Good to Great", and a book called "Turning the Flywheel". He's an awesome... I'm sure everybody's heard of him. He talks about this concept of firing bullets and then cannonballs. He used kind of this old warship analogy. The idea is fire bullets to make sure you got something that works, and then fire a cannonball rather than a lot of people fire a cannonball and they use up all their gunpowder, and all they've got available, and they're like, "Well now I've got nothing."

Brett:

So, test small and then go big.

Molly:

Also, understanding that these offers are not channel-specific. A lot of people create an offer, which they don't spend a lot of time on. They set up a Facebook campaign. They run it for a few days, and then scrap it all. "Oh, this offer doesn't work, and Facebook ads don't work." It's like guys, no it's so much deeper than that.

Brett:

Totally. Totally. Your kind of creating these acquisition funnels then for Boom, and spoiler alert, Boom is going to be releasing new products this year, which is great. Your kind of creating one of these acquisition funnels for each product. That was another thing too with Boom, and Ezra talks about this a lot, that it was just the Boom stick trio, or just the boom stick, that's all that you really use for cold traffic. Now you're building these acquisition funnels for other products, which is huge, and which is going to be a game changer.

Molly:

Look, honestly acquisition funnels are way easier for e-commerce than info or services.

Brett:

They are. They are. No doubt.

Molly:

Info and services takes way more of relationship buildup before someone purchases. It's mainly lead generation through a workshop, or a webinar, or a lead magnet, or a challenge, or a mini series, or whatever the hell people are doing today to try to convert someone into a customer or client. It's a little bit of a different ballgame than e-commerce. A lot of the plays with e-comm can be easier. A lot of the offers that Boom runs are simple. It's direct to a product page for a lip gloss, direct to a product page for a mascara, direct to something that's a direct sale essentially. Where with info, we've got to dance around it a little bit more. The offer creation is even more intensive for that business type.

Brett:

Yeah, it is.

Molly:

Like me. Good lesson, what Ezra has been able to do with Boom I think after working with us at Smart Marketer, is realize that there is a huge hole in the e-commerce space for offer creation that isn't just a giveaway, that isn't just direct to product page, that isn't just a coupon. That is a big reason Boom is able to excel, because we do understand pre-sale articles. We do understand lead magnets.

Molly:

Boom is even doing webinars. They're called "Ladies Night". These principles work for both business types, and there's actually a much bigger opportunity in e-commerce to get more creative with your offers because other e-commerce businesses are simply lazy or don't know how to go about it.

Brett:

You nailed it a little bit ago when you said that in a lot of ways offers for e-commerce, it's simpler. It's more straightforward than it is to do info products. Info products, you really got to get to the core of what this thing, and what is it going to unlock, and what are all the emotions we're trying to tap into here, and uncover here.

Molly:

And give way more value first.

Brett:

Yeah. Yeah. How do you do that? So kind of blending some of those principles, it's super powerful and it's definitely helped Boom get to where it is today without a doubt. Cool. We've got a few additional things I want to talk about, and not a whole lot of time to do it-

Molly:

Brett, hold on. I want to add one more thing. This is one of the biggest reasons that you might be failing to scale as an e-commerce business. If you are only relying on the people that are clicking from a Facebook ad, and directly converting and buying a product, you're missing out on a huge part of your market that just isn't ready to buy in the moment. If you're able to generate the lead, if you're able to nurture them via email, if you're able to set up a funnel where they get some sort of discount, especially if you add some scarcity, your scalability will increase in a way that you never understood, and it has absolutely nothing to do with your advertising. It's just that you are having a conversation with a different part of the market. That's all it is.

Molly:

So, if you are struggling to scale, it's probably not the ad platform, and B, the e-comm company that is willing to go outside of the box.

Brett:

Yeah, totally agree. It's not just I need to bid differently, I need a slightly different campaign structure in my ads manager or inside of Google Ads. Those things may be true, but often it comes down to offer and having the right funnel. Are we actually getting people to give us their email address and get a direct conversion as well? Do we have a nurture sequence? Do we have a remarketing sequence built in? All of those things really unlock the ability to scale rather than just "How do I bid differently or change my campaign structure?"

Molly:

Brett, I would say that your most successful clients, and the ones that you like working with the most are probably strong in this area. As an agency, that's a dream.

Brett:

No doubt. No doubt.

Molly:

The issue you usually have an agency is that you're great at running ads. You only have a few places to run ads to. There's only so much you can do.

Brett:

Yeah, that's one reason we love working with Boom.

Molly:

Just emphasize.

Brett:

You guys get it, and we're just able to work together and crush it. That's fantastic. Cool. Any quick insights, and I kind of designed this podcast series to have a long shelf life, but let's talk about a few trends. What's working right now, or what are some trends inside of Facebook ads that you're seeing right now?

Molly:

Good news is, as we do each year, we're seeing a huge decrease in ad cost at the beginning of the year. Almost 50% cheaper in most of our ad accounts in the analysis. We did over $60 million in spend than what we were seeing Q4, which is a huge relief with the dumpster fire that Facebook was the last six months of 2021.

Brett:

No doubt.

Molly:

That's a huge sigh of relief. We're also starting to see more accurate reporting, or at least I think we're all getting better as marketers getting our stuff together from a tracking standpoint. So, things are looking up, and we are working on offers, working on creative and copy right now so we can really take advantage of the next few months of cheap traffic, and try to do everything we can to set us up for a big Q4 again this year.

Brett:

I love it. Just one thing to keep in mind, this is going to likely always be the trend. Advertisers panic in fourth quarter because costs are going through the roof. But the costs are going to come back down in Q1, so be planning, and be thinking about that, and what's your acquisition strategy going to be in Q1 and then as you lead into and get ramped up for Q4. So, that's awesome.

Brett:

Any other specific trends you want to talk about now? I also want to dig into a mindset just a little bit, which will be fun.

Molly:

Really quick, I wouldn't say this is necessarily a new trend for right now, but it's something we've been preaching for a few years that I just literally cannot emphasize enough. I was actually just on a training call with some of our students, and one of them sells physical products. He's in the snack and wellness space. His Facebook ad results that I was looking at were incredible, $0.04 clicks, 15% click through rate, $3.00 add to cart, numbers I have not seen in years.

Molly:

Guess what he's doing from an ad perspective? It's native advertising. It's user-generated content. It is simply telling stories about people in their own words the experience that they had not even specifically with your product. This was a weight loss product. So, his best performing ad was a picture of a beach with an arrow to a certain area of the beach. The copy was telling a story from the customer's standpoint of, "Last year I went to this beach and I couldn't even walk up the stairs without getting out of breath. I felt terrible, and my health wasn't great. This year, 12 months later, I've gone back to this beach. I've lost 90 pounds. I was able to run around, and I really enjoyed myself."

Molly:

Those weren't the exact words, but that's how simple it was. It wasn't an ad about the product. It wasn't an ad about how great this product was. Absolutely nothing about features. Really, not even a lot of benefits other than the benefits that were woven into the story. This isn't necessarily new, but it's what people are still missing out on when it comes to Facebook and Instagram. These are true social platforms. People are used to engaging with stories from family and friends. Use imagery and copy that is that. It's really that simple.

Brett:

I love it. I don't really ever see that changing. We spend a lot of on YouTube and running YouTube ads, and we're seeing similar things in that videos, and usually you need slightly longer videos on YouTube than you do on Facebook in most cases, but still that user-generated content, those testimonial videos that you could weave into your YouTube ad works there too. I think it's always going to work. As long as it's an authentic, genuine testimonial that really hits on "Here's how my life has changed. Here's why I love this product. Here's my story," people eat that up. I think people will always eat that up if it rings authentic.

Molly:

Because it's a testimonial, that's not what makes it work. We chat about this and then students submit a testimonial, and the first line is "I love this product so much." It's like, guys that's words of customer, but it sounds like an ad. We need to start with things like, "As a mom of two, I didn't think I would have time to do X, Y, and Z." How much more relatable is that? It doesn't feel like you are being sold to.

Brett:

Yeah, one time we had a prospect, and we ended up not working with him. He submits these videos and you could literally read the people that are supposed to be customers. You could watch their eyes reading from a teleprompter. I'm like, "Guys, this not going to work." You want people to be sharing real emotion and their real story.

Molly:

Yeah, well sharing a life story. It's not about why the product's great. It is sharing their story and how it fit into their lives. So, we ask three important questions to get really good testimonials. If you ask these questions, it will set people up to give you really good answers. What was life like before you bought this product? That has them describe that undesirable before state, starts to tell their story. What is life like afterwards? Now they're talking about the after state, the benefits, how much better they feel. Then if you were to re-commend this to a friend, what exactly would you say? When you say it like that, they take off their "I'm a salesperson for this company" hat, and they put on their "Oh, I'm writing a message, or speaking a message to a friend. I'm going to be real about how this product helped me."

Brett:

Love that so much. Actually, since I'm such a believer in testimonials, but getting authentic ones, I created "The Ultimate Guide", I don't remember what I called it, but how to get authentic customer testimonials. It's on the OMG Commerce website. Check it out. I'm not sure if I have those exact [crosstalk 00:40:34]-

Molly:

That's sounds like a good offer for your agency, Brett.

Brett:

It's a good offer. Yeah. We can do that as an offer too for Smart Marketer. It's so true. The difference between a really good testimonial and then an average testimonial is two different planets, two different universes. Getting a good testimonial is worth it's weight in gold. Having one that's average, is really going to do nothing for you, or one that's weak. Anyway, I love that.

Brett:

What was life like before? What was life like after? What would you say to a friend? I love that so much. It's also good, you want to give someone a little bit of help as they're creating a testimonial. Otherwise, it feels like they're staring at a screen and not knowing what to say, or looking at a blank page or whatever. So, giving them some help is key, for sure. I love that. Love that.

Brett:

Let's take just a couple of minutes, and we're going to be short-changing this topic for sure, but I wanted to take a couple of minutes because this will be fun and I think it's useful. It's been a difficult road the last couple of years for e-commerce, entrepreneurs, media buyers, online advertisers, not rough [crosstalk 00:41:47]. E-commerce has grown tremendously. That's been good. E-commerce has grown, so no complaints there.

Brett:

But it's challenging times. I know you train a lot of people, you train a lot of entrepreneurs and media buyers. What are you teaching people about mindset and how mindset impacts results?

Molly:

Mindset is everything in this game. I don't think any of us are maybe even better marketers than one another. It's your willingness to stay committed, and to continue forward. It's what we talked about earlier with us being okay with half of the work we do not actually being used. Or as a media buyer, it's not even about who can set up the best ads. It's about who can continue to troubleshoot and optimize to make each piece of the campaign better so that they can move forward.

Molly:

This is personal development, a concept that most of you have heard of before, but it's really the difference between having a scarcity mindset, or having an abundance mindset. For me, I choose to be grateful. I choose to not get upset with these paid traffic platforms. I choose to look at things with the glass half full. I think that if there was anything unique about our culture at Smart Marketer, that is it. We have all chosen this mindset.

Molly:

There is going to be trouble in anything you do. I think as a human, the last few years have been hard. It's easy to get down. Of course, I still get frustrated, angry, depressed. All of those things occur. But I try to choose to bring positivity to our business, try to bring it to our employees, to our offers, to the trainings that we provide. It really is a completely different experience when you choose to do that.

Brett:

Yeah, I love it. I'm a really positive person. I'm naturally upbeat. I'm a glass half full kind of guy. But I have my moments. I have moments where I want to curse Tim Cook for the latest iOS update, and why are you killing a good thing, Tim Cook? Or whoever else is making the decisions at Apple. We can get in that mindset. It's okay to be frustrated and complain a little bit, but don't stay there.

Brett:

Get to a better place, because you're right, it's not just who's the smartest, it's not just who has the best campaign structure, but who can show up consistently and do the right thing, and who can be okay with "Okay, I got one, two, three campaigns that I wrote that didn't work, but then I had an offer that hit and then it scaled to the moon." Who could handle that?

Molly:

And who-

Brett:

Yeah, please add to that.

Molly:

[inaudible 00:44:31], and who actually cares? It's why I so believe-

Brett:

Exactly.

Molly:

... in the mission of our business that Ezra initially set out, serve the world unselfishly, and profit. If you truly care about the group of people that your business serves, and you care about the way that you're changing their lives, even if you're selling a toothbrush and you're helping their mouth to be cleaner, it doesn't matter. If you truly care about that, it changes the energy of the business.

Molly:

I can tell you, if you asked me "Molly, what is the difference between students that succeed or don't succeed, or friends that I know in the industry that have done great things, or people that are struggling," it really comes back to mindset, and it comes back to an authentic, genuine, caring for the group of people that you're serving. If you have that, and you stay consistent, there's no way that you can't make this work.

Brett:

Yeah, it's so true. If you can really be passionate about your customer, and I would even say about your team, then that's way more powerful than just being passionate about your product. I think both are important, but being passionate about your customer and about your team, that's really where's it at. One thing I discovered for me, and hey I've got lofty goals, I want my business to succeed and I want to it to grow, I think entrepreneurship, and businesses, and capitalism offer a lot to the world. If it's just about money, I burn out quickly. I get to a point where I'm like, "I don't really care anymore."

Brett:

But if I think about who I'm serving, and I think about that business owner that my agency is helping accelerate growth for, if I think about team members who were helping accelerate their individual growth, and I get to see someone step and lead a call, or mail a presentation, or come up with a strategy.

Molly:

Nothing better.

Brett:

I'm like "Whoa, I never thought of that." That is so fun for me, and so rewarding. Then when you key in on that, then guess what, the profits are better too, and then the business grows better too.

Molly:

Brett, aside from the money, I saw a study last year that rated digital marketing as the most stressful job or career path out there, even above brain surgeons, or people working in the medical field.

Brett:

That's crazy, yeah.

Molly:

I believe that. Think about it, we're basically day traders.

Brett:

[crosstalk 00:46:47] so much out of your control, and that's a scary thing. There's so much out of your control, it's scary. Yeah.

Molly:

Exactly. To be able to sustain that, and the changes, and the stress, and the fact that what we do never really turns off unless you choose for it to do so your mindset and who you are as a person, and how you treat yourself and the people around you, that is will what will sustain you moving forward more than anything else.

Brett:

Love that. So good. So good, Molly Pittman. All right, so people that are listening that are like, "Holy cow, I need more Molly Pittman in my life," where do you suggest people go? Obviously, there's lots of stuff people are going to enjoy at SmartMarketer.com, but where should someone get started, or what are some cool things, what are some offers you got going on right now?

Molly:

Yeah, check out SmartMarketer.com. There are some free resources there, depending on what we have going on at the time. I know this is coming out a bit later, Brett, so we do have that State of Paid Advertising in 2022 workshop coming up. We have lots of free resources on our website. If you want to follow me, I'm most active on Instagram @MollyPittmanDigital. I also read all of my DMs, so if you have questions, thoughts about this, I love hearing from you all and I would love to hear from you on Instagram.

Brett:

Instagram, check it out. What's your handle again?

Molly:

One more quick thing, Brett.

Brett:

What's your handle again on Instagram?

Molly:

@MollyPittmanDigital.

Brett:

@MollyPittmanDigital.

Molly:

Of course, if you like this format, you like podcasts, John, and Ezra, and I do have a podcast, The Smart Marketer Podcast. So, check that out.

Brett:

It is an intact podcast, where you get to be a guest for a couple of episodes. It was tremendously fun. Check out the Smart Marketer podcast. I'll link to all of this in the show notes as well so it's easy for you to access. With that, Molly Pittman, any final words? Any final words of wisdom, re-commendations, or asks of the audience?

Molly:

Keep doing it. Just keep at it. Take care of yourself. Maintain that balance in your life. Don't get sucked into this world so that you lose who you are. Or if you do, quickly bounce back from that. Just enjoy. We're living in a really cool time as humans, and there's a lot of crazy stuff going on. When have we ever had the opportunity to do what we're doing from a business standpoint?

Molly:

It's complicated, but also the world is truly at our fingertips. Find a group of people that you align with, that you're interested in, that you want to help, and figure out how you can serve them, and figure out what you can sell to them. I just always go back to being grateful that we are able to work in this way. It's really, really cool. Hopefully, you guys enjoy it too.

Brett:

I love it. It's a super challenging industry. It's always changing. It's very stressful. But man, it's fun. It can be fun, especially if you have the right community around you. If you can find that balance man, it's an awesome place to be. Check out Smart Marketer. Check out the community. Get to know Molly Pittman. Follow her on Instagram.

Brett:

With that, thank you so much for tuning in. This show would be nothing without you who tune in and listen faithfully. If you haven't rated the show, please do that. Leave a review. It helps other people find the show. If there's somebody that you're listening to this and you're like, "Whoa, this person needs to hear this episode," then share with them. That would mean the world to me, and I know it'd make a difference in somebody else's life as well.

Brett:

With that, until next time, stay spicy.

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