I believe in the who, not the how, for more business problems and opportunities.

Want to grow faster?

Need to solve a nagging problem?

Rather than thinking about how to solve it, you might want to start with who.

But that only works well if you have strong leadership skills. As your business grows, you’ll be doing less and leading more. 

My buddy Peter Awad joins the show today. He’s an eCommerce vet. He launched his first online venture in 2000 and co-founded Mission Meats, an online snack company, in 2015.

Now, Peter’s passion is coaching and building great leaders. 

I’m a big believer that culture and leadership will trump strategy any day of the week.

Here are a few of the things we discussed:

• What’s it like on the other side of me?
• Knowing yourself first.
• Radical candor or ruinous empathy.
• The nothing to lose, nothing to prove, nothing to hide approach to discussions.
• The fact that the life you want, the business you want, is on the other side of a few hard conversations.
• How to lead vendors, freelancers, and agencies better.
• How to have better meetings.

Transcript:

Peter:

If you walk into a meeting, whether it's going to be a tentious one or not, doesn't matter, or this conversation we're having right now, and you repeat that to yourself and you believe it, I've got nothing to prove, nothing to lose, nothing to hide. You show up completely differently. You show up authentically you. And one of those things for Johnny in this example would be like, I don't need people to like me. They don't have to like me. I would like them to like me, but I don't need to worry about losing my likability. What's more important is that I do what's best for the business and do what's best for this person across the desk. For me,

Brett:

Culture eats strategy for breakfast. What's up? It's Brett Curry here, CEO of OMG Commerce, host of eCommerce Evolution podcast. And I'm so excited about the show today because we're talking about improving your leadership. I do believe that culture is more important than strategy because even the best strategy, if poorly executed or if you've got a toxic culture, you won't be able to execute on what you want to do. And I believe culture is totally driven by leadership. So you want better growth, you want more profits, you want to have more fun doing what you do than you need better leadership. You want better vendor relationships, better agency relationships. You need to improve your leadership. So my guest today is Peter Awad. He's a friend of mine. He's the co-founder of Mission Meets an online snack company. He also started his e-commerce group back in the year 2000.

That's right, the dawn of the internet. He started his first e-commerce gig. Now he's the founder and head coach of Whitestone Coaching. And so we get into what does it mean to lead better? How do I lead myself better? How do I know myself to lead myself better? How do I lead better meetings? How do I lead vendors and others? We get into lots and lots of good stuff because here's what I believe. As your business grows, as my business grows and I've got a team of about 70, you're going to do less and lead more. And so there's going to be some effective cools, some tips, some strategies here that I think are really fun and really helpful. So please enjoy my interview with Peter Awad. I'm here with Peter Awad of White Stone Consulting Group. Peter, what's up my man? Thanks for coming on the show and I think this is round two for us on the podcast.

Peter:

It might be so you didn't learn enough the first time,

Brett:

A slow learner man, you had to come back and you keep trying to drill it into my thick skull.

Peter:

No, no, I meant more so you didn't learn the first time to not have me back. That's what I meant.

Brett:

I think either one of those could be true, right? So yeah, I like it, man. First of all, just a good friend, love chatting with you, love hanging with you. Any chance that I get Love your e-commerce background and then also what was you're doing now in terms of coaching. So we're going to talk today about being a better leader and to kind of set the stage for that. I think that's important. A lot of times we get tactical on this podcast. We'll get a little bit tactical today too, but I'm a believer, especially as my business grows, but I think this is true for anybody as their business grows, the answer to any problem, any question, any issue is often more about who than it is about how. So instead of solving how do we come to a decision here or solve this issue, it's more about who do we bring in, who do we consult with? Who is going to be the one to lead this or solve this? And so that really all pivots back to us as leaders. How do we grow and become better leaders? And that's what we're going to talk about today. But first off, we'd love to just talk a little bit about your e-commerce background. You'll be able to connect with people, they'll realize, Hey, Peter is my people. Talk a little bit about running an e-comm brand, the challenges and anything in that that led you to the current path now where you're so passionate about leadership.

Peter:

Yeah, I mean, just quick backstory, I started e-comm in 2000, the actual year 2000. So I'm like the old man in the room. Yeah, started in automotive parts, did a bunch of other,

Brett:

The dawn of the internet.

Peter:

The internet was around then. Yeah, it was around then. So I think that doing that and then starting Mission meets D two C snack food brand in 2015. So just had a lot of experience around e-comm and just the life of an e-commerce owner, which I think is unique in many different ways. But what led me to this is just realizing that I didn't know what it was like to be on the other side of me. I think a lot of times as founders, we find ourselves in a leadership position. We didn't plan to get there. You start typically you're one man band or one woman band, and then you add a couple of people and then before you know it, you kind of find yourself in this leadership position. Maybe you don't call it that, and you're severely outgunned. You don't have the tools or you don't have many of the tools that you need in order to figure out how to lead effectively and efficiently a team or a group of people.

And so I just got off the phone with a new client just right before this call, and he's 57 years old and realizing, man, I've been running a business for 20 years, an e-commerce owner running a business for 20 years, has a fairly large team, and is realizing I don't have the tools that I need in order to lead these people effectively. I've just been doing what I'm doing and it's kind of morphed into what it's turned into and I'm defaulting to certain behaviors and tactics that maybe aren't the most effective. And so that's kind of where I found myself at. And it's a really hard mirror to hold up. Like, wait a minute. I thought I was great. I thought I knew what I was doing. And then you realize like, oh man, I kind of don't look so great some of these days and it's not physically looking great. It's like I don't communicate that well or I'm not communicating effectively or efficiently. And so that's what led me down this path to learning more about leadership, learning more about myself as a leader, learning where I was missing the boat and then improving upon that.

Brett:

It's so good. And I love that perspective of seeing what it's like being on the other side of me. And that's one of those statements that can be a little bit scary, a little bit scary sounding, what is it like to be led by me? And a lot of us, and myself included, we've been leading companies or we've in the executive position, president, CEO, founder, whatever for so long, it's pretty hard for us even to put ourselves in the shoes of someone who's being led. And there's been a few situations recently where I've been talking to groups and I'm like, I wonder, do I ever show up like that? Or is this what it feels like to be led by me? And it's one of those things that it's kind of hard to have that real objective perspective on what it's like to be under your own leadership. And so really enjoy this process. And I'm a big fan of Craig Rochelle, Craig Rochelle leadership podcast, but he says, everyone improves, everything gets better when the leader gets better. 100% agree with that statement. So let's maybe start here. Let's talk about what's the difference between a really good leader and just a mediocre leader?

Peter:

I think that it goes back to not knowing what it's like to be on the other side of you. And big part of that is understanding what you're strong at and then particularly what you're weak at. What's the shadow of your strength? Because you're a hard charger and you have a huge bias for action and you can get things done if that's your personality. A lot of times you steamroll people in the process. I'm talking about myself. I'll steamroll people in the process or I won't slow down long enough to hear what they have to say and understand why the ideas maybe not so great. So we put people through an assessment through our program called Giant as part of Whitestone, and it's called Five Voices and everybody's got the five voices, but they can be in different orders. And so I'm a pioneer connector.

And some of the terminology we use to give you some context is we have triggers and weapon systems. And so a trigger is something that somebody will do or say are the types of people that will then cause you to deploy your weapon system. So my weapon system is a grenade launcher, meaning I will just blow up a situation, person, place, whatever, not physically, but you understand. And then triggers. My triggers are time wasters, people threatening my vision, people perceived as incompetent people threatening my competency. And so it was so revealing, Brett, for me to learn that like, wait a minute, if you're like, Hey, Peter, pump the brakes, I don't know about that idea. I would feel like you're wasting my time. You must be incompetent. You didn't understand the vision the first time. You're threatening my incompetence telling me that I need to slow down and then I'll just blow you up.

And so that's the difference between a good leader and a bad leader. A good leader will know, okay, I have a tendency to do that. And so when you tell me to pump the brakes and you're a guardian, which means you like to dot i's and cross t's, I'm prepared for you. I'm going to bring an idea to Brett and I'm going to be prepared with more data. I know he's going to ask me some really hard questions. And it's not because he's threatening my vision and it's not because he's incompetent. He has a different skillset and he's going to protect the business and protect the vision. And he's actually not an adversary. He's an ally. He wants this to succeed. And because of that, he's going to ask the necessary questions. Now that is an effective leader, I know what your personality type is, and I know mine and we can now work it together.

And this ties back to true ROI of learning this stuff. Most orgs are barely over 50% efficient. Why? Because I might spend an hour arguing with you and really treating you. You're an idiot, and I've done that when instead I'm prepared for you. And we can cut through all that and I can share the data that I need to share so that you can understand and so I can understand where you're coming from and maybe we won't do the idea. It turns out it's actually stupid idea, which is usually the case. And so that's a difference between a good leader and a bad leader. Just one example,

Brett:

This is so good, Peter, because to have a successful organization, you need people with different personality profiles, different ways of attacking the same issue, and finding ways to work together. Because let's face it, if everybody was like Peter, if everybody was like me, holy cow, it'd be a wreck, right? Organization would be a wreck because for me, and I'm more a visionary, high level, pretty fast in a lot of things, but not great with details. And so certain details would just get dropped, missed, it would be a mess. But if we don't understand ourselves, we don't understand the people on our team, then that's going to lead to issues for sure. A couple things that I'm curious, I haven't gone through your test, so I don't know some of the terminology, although it's totally resonating. Have you done Peter Lencioni's, five Working Geniuses?

Peter:

I have not, yes. Have you heard of that? Yeah. Pat Lencioni. Yeah, I have not. I've heard really, really good things. Have you?

Brett:

Yeah, it's really good. And so he's got these acronyms, I'm sure it lines up pretty closely to what you are talking about, but it's an acronym that spell widget, but it's Wonder Inventor, discerner, galvanizer, enabler, and then Tenacity. Anyway, as you look at those, and it's kind of the same thing where you got one or two strengths and you got some competencies and you got some things that you're kind of deficient at. Probably for me, I'm a wanderer and a galvanizer, so I do like to wonder. So it's more like if you're solving a problem, you're like, Hey, what if this might actually be really cool? Lemme think about this big picture thing. I enjoy doing that, but I also enjoy rallying the troops. And what's interesting is sometimes when you face a problem, you just go back to those strengths. If there's a problem, I want to reinvent things. I'm like, Hey, we wonder about this. Lemme wonder about that. And if someone's really just a tenacity person, let's just get stuff done. Problem shows up. There's one charge through it. So kind of understanding how you operate and how your team operates, man, it's a game changer. Game changer, because you go from communicating in a way you're wrong as how we might lean into that to be like, Hey, this is a different perspective and we need this perspective.

Peter:

That's right. You're exactly right, man. And I think that it's so incredibly powerful because just like you said, a whole group of Peters, a whole group of just Bretts, it's going to be disaster. You're going to be running through walls as fast as you can, but they might be the wrong ones. And then a whole group of guardians, the people that are maybe, I don't know the terminology in the six working geniuses, but someone who's going to dot i's and cross T's very, very safe, very, very safe organization going nowhere. And so you need both. And when you see everybody as an ally and understanding that you need all these different personalities at the table in order to do something really special, it just changed the organization, it changed the way you lead. And then also understanding that they've got some weaknesses that got to maybe pick up and you have some weaknesses that you got to pick up. And so together you're just making each other better. And so it's a totally different organization.

Brett:

Yeah, absolutely. And so let's talk about this in any practical tips or suggestions. So it'd be great to use a tool, some kind of personality tool to kind of see how your team operates. I think everybody's got their favorites. I love the way yours sounds. And so once you kind of do that, then how do you create this unity amongst your team? And how do you allow those different voices, different perspectives to be shared, but then also to get stuff done and to move forward?

Peter:

So one of the tools that, because I know that maybe most people are listening and not watching, and so just visualize an X in AY axis, and the top right corner is a liberator. And so the Y axis is support, and the x axis is challenge. So if you're high support, high challenge, you're a liberator, bottom right corner, low support, high challenge, that's a dominator. Top left corners all support, very little challenge. That's a protector. And bottom left, low support, low challenge, that's an abator. And so the reason I'm bringing that tool up is because when you calibrate, and that's a very specific word, and I'll tell you why in a minute, support and challenge to that person knowing their personality, you can bring them effective support and challenge so they can be liberated. Now, calibrated means when you know that person, each person's going to need different sorts of levels of support and different levels of challenge, different types of support, different types of challenge.

So you start to understand what it is this person needs in order to succeed in their position. So that's calibrated to that person. Now, what does it mean to liberate and what does support and challenge even mean? This is the sticking point. This is I've found really, really fascinating, Brett, is that most good leaders that are also kind, which is most of us, they actually lean more towards a protector. They're going to protect that person from maybe not so great in interaction. You're like, ah, John, Jenny, you didn't really perform that well. We're going to avoid that. It might make them feel bad, it might be awkward, it might be awkward for Brett, it might be awkward for those people. And so you're going to protect them. You're going to bring them support, a lot of support, but very little challenge meaning like, oh, I'm sorry you missed the Friday deadline.

How about Monday is Monday, but then that develops a lot of mistrust and why does it develop mistrust? Brett's going to come in over the weekend and just get it done. It really actually needed to be done on Friday. And then they're going to come in on Monday and be like, wait, why'd you do it? You told me Monday was okay. You're like, yeah, it wasn't actually okay, but I didn't know how to bring effective challenge. And we don't have that terminology now why is that? It's because most people have not been modeled what effective challenge looks like. A lot of times we hear that word or we think about a negative interaction where somebody didn't perform well, an interaction or a situation where somebody didn't perform well, we think about it as negative. We think like, oh, there's going to be yelling, crying, cursing. It's going to be stressful. Somebody's going to quit, somebody's going to get fired, they're going to feel bad. There's going to be all kinds of excuses. And so we just try to avoid those. We avoid those situations. And so another podcast that I was on, I was saying this story, and you probably know him, Brett, and he has almost a billion dollars of property under management, $1 billion.

Brett:

Dang,

Peter:

It's crazy. This guy is a real estate. Ty Khan, a real estate guru, and he just starts laughing, why are you laughing, dude? He's like, Peter, I am the deal in this industry. He goes, and even when I come in and there's been a remodel or something's happened and I see all the things that are wrong, I'll then look the contractor in the face or the general in the face and say cash or check. I don't like those situations. I don't like telling somebody, well, yeah, you did a great job. However, there's one thing you got to do a little bit better. So that's him protecting them, but it's also him protecting himself. He doesn't want to deal with that sort of situation. Now, what's the downside of this man? What's the downside of this? You're robbing yourself in many different ways. One is they didn't do the job and that sucks.

You're robbing them because they now don't get to do a better job and come back and be your a-player contractor, your a-player vendor because they didn't know to do better, and so they're going to keep delivering you mediocre work or you're going to have to go find another vendor because you didn't give them a chance to improve. And so you're robbing the business and all the relationship in all the situations in every way possible because you didn't spend the time and do the hard thing to bring effective support and challenge calibrate to that person so they can be liberated and be your A player that's your contractor for the next 20 years. So amazing and know exactly how Brett operates. And so that's just an example of bringing that support challenge, liberating a person so that they can become effective for you. Now, there's people listening right now, I guarantee it. They're like, well, I shouldn't have to do that. They're the specialists, they're the drywall, they're the Google ad specialist. They should be able to do that. I shouldn't have to tell them maybe, but you're the one that's dictating and you're the one that's the drumbeat of the organization. If you want it done a certain way, it is your responsibility to communicate that and give them a chance. Now you give 'em a chance and they don't perform fine, get rid of 'em. But you'll never know until you become that liberator leader.

Brett:

Yeah, it's so good. And I heard a quote recently that I really like. That's the life you want, the business you want. It's on the other side of a few hard conversations. And if you are stuck, it's because you're unwilling to have those hard conversations. And I really like the way you position that, that it's not just cheating you, it's cheating the other person if you're not sharing that feedback. One of my favorite books in this genre is called Radical Candor by Kim Scott. Do you know Radical Candor?

Peter:

Yeah,

Brett:

It's so good. And she talks about ruinous empathy versus radical candor. And I believe in a lot of ways, I'm a protector. I don't want to make people feel bad. I think I'm very conscious of the way people are feeling and their emotions. I think I'm pretty in tune with that, and I hate to ruin someone's day or make them feel bad. So I would have a tendency to not give radical candor. But the thing is, people want it. They may not want it in the moment, but ultimately they want it. They want that candid feedback. They want to be able to improve, and they certainly don't want to, not if you're upset, they don't want to be sitting in the dark. And I remember one great story about Steve Jobs, and I think we can obviously clearly a genius and one of the great business leaders.

I don't know that we want to adopt all his leadership styles, but obviously a genius and very effective. He had a conversation with Johnny, ive, and of course Johnny Ive is a famous designer that created all the products we love, iPhone, iPad, Mac and all that stuff. And so there was this time when Steve was like, Johnny, why don't you talk to your team about making these improvements? This is not good enough needs to be improved. And Johnny's like, well, there's stress. I don't want to upset them. I don't want to do this or that. And Steve said, no, Johnny, you're just being vain and you want people to like you. He realized, yeah, that's actually a big part of it. And so understanding that too, that part of why I don't want to challenge or give this feedback is because I want people to like me and I'm being vain, but I'm just hurting myself. I'm hurting someone else. And so I've got to give that feedback. So I think it'd be good to talk about how do we get better at leading ourselves? I think that's something we got to do, right? If you can't lead yourself, probably can't lead other people. Then I've got several specific questions I think will tie into our e-commerce owner friends, but also any business. But how do we get better at leading ourselves?

Peter:

So we have a phrase, know yourself to lead yourself. And a big part of it are these voices. A big part of it are like this, you just said this about Johnny, the understanding that you want to be liked and how that's impeding your growth as a leader. And so we've got a phrase, nothing to lose, nothing to prove, and nothing to hide. And it's so interesting, Brett, because if you walk into a meeting, whether it's going to be a contentious one or not, doesn't matter, or this conversation we're having right now, and you repeat that to yourself and you believe it, I've got nothing to prove and nothing to lose, nothing to hide. You show up completely differently. You show up authentically you. And one of those things for Johnny in this example would be like, I don't need people to like me. They don't have to like me.

I would like them to like me, but I don't need to worry about losing my likability. What's more important is that I do what's best for the business and do what's best for this person across the desk for me. And so those types of tools that we teach, they allow you to lead yourself in a way that is authentic and in alignment with who you are. If you think about those three questions and you say them to yourself, do I have anything to lose, prove or hide? And you walk into a meeting, it's pretty crazy because if you even use it on your next one, Brett, and you'll find yourself about to say something, you're like, wait a minute, why would I say that? Oh, I don't lose the argument. Or I need to prove that I know what I'm talking about. Or I need to hide the fact that I made a mistake. Then instead just being like, oh, I don't know. I guess I made a mistake or that was wrong. Yeah, yeah, you're right. It's a bad idea. It's so powerful to see. That to me is leading yourself right down the path that you're supposed to be on. I dunno if that's answering your question.

Brett:

Yeah, it's really helpful and insightful. I do have a couple of questions that to kind of follow up on that. So how do we do that? And it totally makes sense. If you go in with nothing to lose, nothing to prove, nothing to hide, it's just going to go better. It at least strips out the chargey side of emotions that could lead you to make a snap decision or to fly off the handle or do something you're going to regret. But what about situations where it's a pretty tense situation and you do have something to lose, client's going to cancel or customer's going to leave a bad review or somebody might quit. How do you frame that? I'm sure still saying those questions is going to help provide the right frame of mind, but what do you do in tense tough situations?

Peter:

What's so interesting about that question? I've been thinking about it a lot recently. You're walking into a meeting and you're like, man, I'm going to lose this client. You probably feel exactly what that feels like right now. You're like, yeah, I remember this was a month ago at this meeting with a big time client, huge retainer. And I'm like, man, I don't think they're happy. We call it making the implicit explicit. So I'll just walk in and be like, Hey, hey guys, I know we're definitely not making you happy. This has not been working out. We have not delivered on what we were supposed to deliver on or the way that we were supposed to deliver it. So what should we do? And speaking explicitly, everybody knows the elephant in the room, just call it out. And the other thing is on losing the client or the employee is I lean on the fact that maybe that's the right thing.

Maybe the client's not supposed to be your client. Maybe they're making your life hell, you're making their life hell or you're just the wrong fit. And so again, nothing to lose walking in with just being like, man, I don't want to lose this client, but maybe it's the right thing and let's just call out the elephant in the room. Let's make it explicit. Hey guys, we haven't delivered and I'm sorry, what should we do about it? Or with the employee, this situation hasn't been working out. I know it's been contentious for you, it's definitely been contentious for me. What should we do? And just calling it right out, and maybe they're not the right fit. It's crazy examples where you've held onto a client or an employee because you really didn't want to lose them. And you look back, you're like, dude, we should have just cut them loose.

That was so stupid. Why did I fight for that? That was just a bad fit for us. So that's my mentality. Maybe it feels a little bit naive, and maybe it is, but it's like that's how I'd walk into those situations without trying so desperately to hold onto it. And I think it's an andreesen quote, you have to Google it, but strong opinions loosely held comes to mind where it's like, yeah, I feel like this is the right idea or this is the right employee or this is the right client, but I'm okay being wrong. I'm open to being wrong. Maybe I get some more data. And it's just like it's not the right move for us.

Brett:

Yeah, strong opinions loosely held. It's so powerful. And it kind of ties into that the mindset of this is my position until I learn different data, this is what I believe about this topic, this ad campaign, this product launch, this person who's an employee, this is my belief. Until the data changes, then, so I've got a strong opinion, but I'm willing to change if the data changes. And I do think it's 100% the right mindset that you don't need any one deal or any one customer or any one team member to be successful. There are some of those changes that could be right. You lose a key team member, your partner bails, you lose the largest client you have. Some of those things are legitimately painful, but they're not usually life threatening, right? You're going to make it. And I do believe, like you said, most of the time you find out that, dang, it's actually good.

It's probably good that this happened then I should have made a change sooner. And one of my favorite quotes comes from Peter Drucker. He talks about, you look at a situation, so this team member, this vendor, this client, if I had to go back, would I do that again? Would I hire that person again? Would I hire that vendor? Would I take that client on? If the answer is no, then why do you persist, right? And so I love that. Why do you persist if you wouldn't, knowing what you know now, if you wouldn't have done it, why do you keep doing it now? Why do you persist? And a lot of times I think we're holding on because of fear or something when probably if you go in with kind of that mindset of nothing to lose and then you make the implicit exploits like you talked about, then you're probably going to be okay if that thing ends or that relationship ends, and you may find it's better anyway.

Peter:

You know what else, Brett too? You said it's painful. It's painful in the short term because you're letting go of a client and maybe he's a big partier revenue. I just had a friend of mine that he's a freelancer and he just cut loose. His biggest client, big part of his income, he couldn't afford to lose him, but he knew two things. One was making his life hell. And second, if he didn't let them go, he wouldn't have any room to bring the right client in. And so he knew, he's like, man, this is a chicken the egg thing. I got to cut them loose to relieve the pressure from them, but also to make room for him to do the business developing he needed to do to bring the right client in.

Brett:

And it's painful, but I think deep down, we typically know, we know when it's time. We just allow some of the other louder voices of, no, hold on. It'll get better. You can fix it, they'll change or whatever. We allowed that to crowd in and we don't make that change. Well, we've already kind of talked about this a little bit, but I want to go deeper. So how do we use some of these tools or some of the tools that we haven't talked about yet to lead vendors better or to lead agencies better or freelancers? So we've got these other relationships that aren't just people on our team. How do we lead them better?

Peter:

A lot of the same tools, man. I think really a lot of it comes back to me in support challenge. So I don't know how many vendors that we've held onto as our company, I won't speak for you, where I kind of smiled and nodded and I'm like, I don't know. The data they're providing just doesn't make any sense, or I'm not really seeing the results. But they're nice people. They're nice people, and I feel like maybe if I hold on a little longer, things will work out. And instead in the very beginning, understanding what metrics to measure with the data you have now, iterating on those accordingly. And then asking the hard questions, just saying, Hey, how long do we persevere? Or, Hey, this data doesn't line up, or, Hey, I need a different report. I'm not really confident in what you're saying is not really lining up with our expectations.

So again, calibrated support. Challenge those people so that you in the end can do both. Do your business as service, but also them as service and cut 'em loose if it's time. Or they can iterate and they can find that gold coin or whatever you want to call it in your marketing space or in your supply chain or in raw material. And so I don't know, there's a lot of times where I've sat in a meeting and someone, a vendor has said something and I just smile. I'm like, oh, okay, sounds good. But then I get off the call and I'm like, that didn't make any sense. I didn't understand that

Brett:

And

Peter:

I don't want to look stupid. I didn't want to be like, Hey, I didn't really understand what you said. Can you repeat that? And now it's kind of a fun game for me to just ask the dumb question, Hey guys, sorry, dumb it down to a fifth grader. Talk to me. I'm a fifth grader. I don't understand what you're saying. I don't know how this pertains to us. This doesn't seem to be working, but you're telling me differently. What do you mean by that? Help me to understand. And so bringing that support challenge to a vendor or to a contractor in a way, it's the same thing. It's like the example of my buddy in the real estate. It's like you got to be able to do that in order to lead those folks better as well.

Brett:

And from an agency perspective, and we consult with clients, work with clients all the time, and sometimes clients come to us and they just say, man, my Google ads are a mess, or Amazon's a mess. I just need help, man. I just need help growing. Or I know I'm not scaling quick enough. Can you help me? And that's always fine. And we can dig in and we'll ask the right questions, we'll uncover things. We'll get to clarity around goals and objectives and how to support your business. But I always appreciate it. I always love it actually, when a client comes in and says, Hey, this is what we need. We're really, we're trying to reach this objective. We want to get to this top line, this bottom line, because we want to sell in three years. And so our golden metric is we need to acquire new customers at this CPA if we can do that.

And if we can do that on a consistent basis, we will be here forever. If we can't, we're going to have issues, we're going to have to make a change. Or sometimes we've had clients come to us and they say, Hey, in three to six months, we want to build an in-house team potentially or keep you guys on for consulting. But we help build things. And I love that transparent upfront conversation because then we as an agency know how to calibrate with that, and we know how to effectively launch a plan to meet those objectives. And then those conversations are easier too. And I think the same is true with an employee. You hire someone on to run to be a sales rep for you. You clearly say, we expect this kind of inputs and outputs. We think you should make this many calls and be able to answer this many emails and have this many discovery calls. And you just map all that out. This is what we expect, and we will be measuring it and talking to you about it and helping you improve and things like that. That clarity, I think the right team members love that too. And so yeah, I think just being very clear and then measuring against that, man, you almost can't go wrong if you do those things.

Peter:

And you know what else is crazy, Brett, is that there's such a gut rot around not knowing if you're doing a good job. And so the vendor or the employee, if they don't know and they're constantly wondering like, oh, is Peter mad at me? I'm not really sure. I don't know if I'm doing a good job. I feel like I'm doing okay, but he just asked for more, better, faster. And there's no way to put that in a spreadsheet. Yeah, we more better, faster. You want a specific number of what you're trying to hit versus the goalpost just keeps getting moved more, better, faster, more, better, faster. And then as the owner not knowing exactly what you wanted to begin with is foolish. And so for that client to ask you like, Hey man, this is what we need from OMG. We need this, this, and this.

Okay, great. Now we know exactly what you want. And guess what? We can report on that. And guess what? We'll know we're doing good or we're not because you told us what you were measuring. And then you quoted Peter Drucker, my favorite Peter Drucker quote is What gets measured gets managed. And so that falls right in line with just being explicit and support challenge here. There's no need to wonder, this is what you need. We need the CPA. Great. Awesome. This is what we're trying to do. What's an example of the absolute worst client that comes to you, Brett? What's that look like?

Brett:

Yeah, it's usually when things are really, really unclear. And then I love the more, better, faster. Well, what does that mean? What does more mean? And what does faster mean? What does better mean? And like I said, we're pretty good at asking questions and getting there. But what's also kind of funny is we always have these discussions around budgets, right? Because budgets are kind of like a fluid thing with a lot of e-commerce brands. And so the initial growth rep will hear one thing, and then there's another call and there's something different, and then there's the kickoff call and something totally different. And we're like, I don't think this person knows what their budget is. Or sometimes the CPA changes. And it's like we just had to really get way better at asking the same question about three or four different ways. Or you can just tell sometimes someone comes in, they're just buttoned up and they know exactly what they want and that's great. But if they don't, then you just got to keep asking questions and that's all fine. And I think it's one of those things where a good employee, a good agency, a good freelancer, they're going to take it upon themselves to, as Jocko willing talks about, lead up the chain of command, right? I'll try to lead the client better. I'll try to lead my boss better by asking good questions. And if it's not clear, I'll make sure it's clear. So yeah, I think that's important as well.

Peter:

It's so good. I love extreme ownership. That's where that quote comes from. I think on the leading up,

Brett:

It does. It comes from extreme ownership work.

Peter:

And I think that's a really great point, man. For anybody who's listening, who's on the other side of it and they're dealing with their contractor or their vendor and they're dealing with a customer that's asking for their services to know and help them understand what it is they actually want and how to measure it. And so that everybody knows what success looks like. I mean, that's a huge point.

Brett:

So good, man. We've covered a lot of ground and we are about out of time. I do want to ask one more thing before we talk a little bit about your coaching biz and how that works and get a lot of people to get in touch with you and stuff. Yeah. What about leading better meetings? I think this is a real pain point for team members, for vendors, for freelancers, meetings that should have been emails or Slack messages or whatever. But any quick tips on how do we craft better meetings?

Peter:

Yeah, I'm going to lean on EOS and traction for this. For us, having a level 10 meeting and then understanding scorecards and who's responsible for what and what seat do they own and what metrics they're, and then understanding what is it, identify, discuss, and solve. Is that what IDS stands for?

Brett:

Yes, that's correct.

Peter:

And so to drop things in that can wait until the next meeting to drop it in the IDS, and you can go through that and actually solve it on the meeting. And I love the idea of not leaving open loops. We have too many open loops emails that go out and you're not really sure if the person got it done, that's an open loop versus them replying back and we're like, got it done. There's just way too many open loops. And so if you can identify, discuss, and solve on the meeting and have it done and know what the next steps are, that to me, those are my favorite meetings. And so I think that they need to have a clear agenda, who's responsible for what metrics they're reporting on, and then understanding what the issue is and discussing it and solving it on the meeting when possible, not always possible. We follow that level 10 meeting structure. It's my favorite.

Brett:

It's so good. Yeah, understanding who owns this meeting, what's the objective, what are we trying to accomplish in the meeting? And then those other pieces you identified so important because I think in some cases, a meeting is the most efficient use of time you can have if you've got the right group, solving the right issues and talking about the right things. Meetings are fantastic if you're missing some of those components. If there's not a clear objective, not a clear owner, you're not really working towards something, you're just kind of chatting it up or trying to figure out where to go. Meetings are such a waste of time. And then everybody loses energy and then they don't want to go to the next meeting. And so yeah, we spend so much time in meetings, we got to put in the effort to lead better ones. If you do, it's like a breath of fresh air, a boost of energy, a shot in the arm organization. And so you need to make that happen.

Peter:

Yes, for sure. And one last thought on that, think about what you can do asynchronous. Could you have just sent a Loom video? Somebody asked you a question, let's not have a meeting. I'll just send you a loom and it's done.

Brett:

I do love the Loom idea. Love loom videos. The asynchronous is really great. Awesome. Man. This has been fantastic, Peter. I'm motivated. I've always loved leadership stuff, but I want to get better. You're challenging me and inspiring me, which is super great. And so for those listening that say, man, I kind of want to understand those triggers and those weapon systems that Peter was talking about, and I want to really know myself or see myself to be able to lead myself and others and some of those things. Talk just a little bit about your coaching practice and then how can people get in touch with you?

Peter:

Yeah, for sure, man. We do some one-on-one and group coaching. It just depend on what you need and if we're the right fit. And so typically we'll do a discovery call and just figure out what it is that you're trying to overcome and whether we're the right fit or not, and whether you need some one-on-one or whether you need group. We have both of those going on and there's a lot of accountability associated with it, A lot of learning. I like to say we're not just inspiring, we need to be transformative. Otherwise, this is just that conference that you went to and you're super excited and you took a bunch of notes and then you put 'em on the shelf and you forgot all about. You had a lot of email that day. I do not want to be that ever. And so what you're going to learn, it's actually going to take root and then it'll just inject itself in your company culture and you'll start seeing it everywhere. And so that's what we're doing. I do have a free resource for your listeners. They can just go to whitestone coach.com and they can download a free resource. And there's a lot of those tools that I talked about. They're in there, they're free, and they can check them out and hopefully learn something. And if they want to get in touch with me, they can just email me, peter@whitestonecoach.com,

Brett:

Peter@whitestonecoach.com, or go to whitestone coach.com to get those free resources and tools. Peter, I would, ladies and gentlemen, Peter, you crushed it, man. And I knew you would, and you're a podcast pro. You've done this stuff, man, but so good. And we got to remember, everything's going to improve. Everything's going to get better when you lead yourself and when you lead others better. So thanks for the time, man.

Peter:

Thank you, Brett. Appreciate it, man.

Brett:

And as always, thank you for tuning in. We'd love to hear from you. What would you like to hear more of or less of on the show? If you found this helpful, then I'd love that review. I'd love that. Share. If you know someone else in the e-commerce space or, Hey, this episode applies to about any entrepreneur, if you found it helpful, share it helps other people improve, and everyone's going to thank you for sharing a good resource. So with that, until next time, thank you for listening.

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